His Hands Church
His Hands Church
God Stories - MJ Nixon - Surrendering Sexuality
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MJ shares her costly yes to Jesus—laying down her sexuality and walking out a life of surrender, even when it wasn’t easy. She talks about how God met her in the middle of her identity and invited her into something deeper. Now, through Rainbow Revival and Freedom Marches, she’s helping others encounter the same mercy, hope, and redemption she found. “Jesus is real. And he keeps us from stumbling.” This episode is raw, honest, and full of grace.
And the Lord said to me, MJ, if you will lay down your sexuality, like I will not only take it, but I'm going to replace, I'm going to infill, I am going to bring restoration to so many areas.
SPEAKER_05MJ, thanks for uh thanks for joining me. Thanks for being in the studio.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_05Thanks for giving me, you gave me a t-shirt, and uh it just I've put on a little weight recently, and uh and it was just a little too tight. I was gonna rep your shirt, you know, but you've got a hat on and all that. So I was. I was like ready to be a a a logo, a billboard, I guess. It was just uh it was it was a good wake-up call. It's like I need to hit the gym a little harder if a large fits me that.
SPEAKER_02No conviction. That's an art.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's all good. No, I'm so excited though that you're here. I've known you, gosh, we've we've connected like we don't know each other well, but we've probably had little moments of connection over the course of like five or six years. Yeah, I would imagine. Um I actually lived across the street from your parents. You did for a number of years, and they've they've where where are they at now?
SPEAKER_02God bless you for that.
SPEAKER_05No, they were great. Well, they they're big like R V trip people. So they would often be gone for weeks at a time. You know, the RV would be out of the driveway and I wouldn't see them for a while. So they're are they is that what they're doing now? Are they just on the road?
SPEAKER_02They're always. I'm trying to keep up with them. Really? So they're great people.
SPEAKER_05They're great people. So yeah, I lived across the street from your parents, but um God also just connected us through some different ministries we've been involved in. And uh with that said, I guess tell us like what is the ministry that you lead, that you started this, correct?
SPEAKER_02I was a part, one of the co-founders.
SPEAKER_05One of the co-founders. Tell us about this ministry and uh what you guys do, what your purpose is, and I think we'll just we'll go from there.
SPEAKER_02Great. Well, I'm part of a ministry called Rainbow Revival, and we're a family of former LGBTQ individuals, and God called us in 2018 to start sharing our testimonies publicly.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02So we started uh this march called Freedom March. And so over the last eight years, we have been to 15 different locations all over the United States, and we come together and we share our testimonies of what Jesus has done in our lives. We have worship, we have an altar call, repentance, baptisms, just everything right there in the middle of local cities. And the rainbow part is Genesis 9. It's God's covenant that he would no longer flood the earth. So we believe it's God's promise. So that's remember the promise. And then the revival part is prepare the way. And we believe that there is an undercurrent. You might not hear it in the media, you might not see it in the movies, but God is bringing a rainbow revival in this generation. He's awakening sons and daughters to their true identity in Christ. And it is so beautiful to see that, even in my own life, and I'll be sharing my story. I can't believe I'm sitting here right now and that this is what God has called me to lead. But I'm so grateful because every day we get testimonies of people who are saying, I was living this false identity in the LGBT, and Jesus has encountered me right where I'm at, and I'm on this process of sanctification. And it's been so beautiful to walk with hundreds, if not thousands, of others who, like myself, have encountered a real God who really loves us and we've surrendered our lives to his love and his truth right here, right now.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, it's I mean, every time you share your story, it just blows me away because number one, it takes a tremendous amount of courage to do what you do. You know, so like I I'm in a very safe environment on Sunday mornings in the sense that like here at his hands, it's a it's a church I've been part of for 20 years. I know everybody, or at least everyone you know knows me to some degree. And everyone here is coming here specifically to be here and be part of what we're doing, right? So it's a pretty like safe crowd. You know, that doesn't mean that occasionally I may not say something that I go, oh, this one's gonna maybe sting and this might ruffle some feathers. But um, but for you to do what you do, you are loving people so much that you're willing to go to places where you're not you haven't necessarily been in invited in the sense of like this, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we were in Portland three weeks ago. Okay, so that's what I'm trying to find. Downtown Portland.
SPEAKER_05I'm trying to find the right words. But like, yeah, you're in you're in environments where I'm sure you encounter on a f on a regular basis quite a bit of resistance and and challenge, and that takes a lot of courage. And so you know, kudos to you, but like you said, this is your story. You're this is something that for you is it is it is deeply personal.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_05Um and so everyone that's that's leading your ministry, you are all people who, like you just described yourself, had at one point in time an LGBTQ uh experience or or I sense of identity.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05And now you're in a different place. Yes. So can you would you just like tell us your story?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, how this all I grew up in the church. Uh I was the middle of two brothers.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02So we were always outside. I really excelled in sports. I ended up getting a college scholarship to play basketball, which I know you love too in college.
SPEAKER_05I mean, we can talk, we can talk a lot about basketball another time, but yes, that that's another reason I like you so much because the basketball thing is great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I started to realize from a young age, I couldn't have said the term homosexuality. I didn't know that that was what I was struggling with, but I knew from a very young age I was solely attracted to the other little girls. And as I look back and my mom would read me, you know, the nursery rhymes, the stories. I always wanted to be the prince, saving the princess. Like I did not want to be the princess. I wasn't really drawn to the dresses. I wasn't drawn to the girlier things. I think there were a lot of things in my life that shaped this identity for me, especially being uh in the middle of two brothers who are. So I'd been labeled your typical tomboy, you know, back in the 80s. And um, that really set, I feel like the trajectory for me. I was in church, but all I thought was, I'm going to hell. Like I never heard anyone share a story of that they struggled with homosexuality or what we say, same-sex attraction, and actually had hope or future. And so I just hid. I felt so much shame, guilt. I thought my family would reject me, that no one would love me if I was honest with the inward feelings I had.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02So in high school, I got involved with all the popular people, went to all the parties, uh, would drink, but the attractions would never leave. The people were shallow as soon as the party was over. It really wasn't deep friendship. But I sought that out thinking, okay, well, maybe this will feel something in me and these attractions will go away. But they never went away. And then, like I said, when I got into college, was when I actually started to really live out the desires that I had inside. Um, I was away from church, I was away from my family, and I was in another state, and I met this woman. I knew I was very drawn to her, and we ended up being in a relationship for almost short of six years together. But I always knew that she was going to be married to a man, which did happen, and that she really loved Jesus. And she actually, I would say, would be the one to lead me to the understanding of not just God as a God that just towers down on us and points the finger at us and says, do this and do that. But I would say she's actually the one that led me into a church where for the first time in my life I heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, that he had died for me, that he loved me, but I wasn't ready to lay down that relationship because we were so tied to one another. We did everything together. We had the American dream, and that was what I always wanted. I wasn't promiscuous, though I was in the LGBT clubs. I always wanted to be with one woman for the rest of my life. And I had that. But despite that, inwardly, there was a still small voice. It was the Holy Spirit saying, This is not what I have for you, MJ. There's something so much greater for you if you just would lay down this area. Because growing up in church, you know, I wanted Jesus in my life.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02So when I was sick, I'd pray. When I wanted something, I would pray. Uh, but it was like certain areas of my life I wanted Jesus in. Yeah. But I wasn't fully ready to fully surrender, especially my sexuality, because it felt so costly. It was the one thing that I knew my whole life. But there was always this inner tug of war of this isn't the fullness, MJ, of what I have for you, despite outwardly how I was living, um, inwardly what I felt, my feelings, my emotions, my desires. Yeah. Seemed like, okay, this is the course for MJ's life. This is her future. She's gonna be with this woman. They're gonna be married, they're going to have children. You know, that was what my life looked like.
SPEAKER_05And what years would this have been, like roughly?
SPEAKER_02Like I'm thinking through just the like 2006, um all the way up to what would that be? 2012.
SPEAKER_05So it's kind of in that same era that um I mean, we're getting close to probably when uh when gay marriage was legalized in America. So you have kind of this upswell culturally of that happening as as well. Yes. And people were pretty divided. Um, what was that like for you with your family? What was that like? I mean, uh was that a challenge? Was that a sense of tension, or how did that all go?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I knew I was hurting my family, and I knew my family knew, but because I had that shame, um, in a way, the relationship was kind of under wraps, like, oh, this is my best friend when everyone knew it was way more than that. But that was a way for me to just have her a part of family, friends, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But down, you know, deep I knew my family knew, and I knew my parents knew, and I knew I was really hurting them because of the truth that they walk in, you know. And so I was not one that totally pushed my family away. Like I would understand, even if I did go to the place of being in a union with a woman, that my parents most likely would not show up at my wedding. But I respected that because I respected we might have different beliefs, but you're still a person. And if you have those beliefs, I'm not offended by that. But many people in the LGBT clearly are very offended by that because of their identity, and this is who I am. And if you don't accept me being in a relationship, then you don't accept me.
SPEAKER_05So no, it's tough. And and even as you're saying this, what I love about the story is it's it's uh, I mean, it's just very similar to so many stories in scripture. It's just messy and complicated, and like you said, okay, you're in a relationship with this this woman, and yet she loved Jesus, right? So it's and some people hear that and go, no, that's important. No, like we can both love Jesus and also have major issues and confusion and and all of that.
SPEAKER_02Lots of traumas. Lots of traumas. Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_05No, so many. Um and you know, I've had someone say to me, like, I love Jesus, I just am not good at loving him. Like that was the way they put it. Like, I do love him, I want my life to reflect it. I know for me, um, you know, I've I've you talk about areas of your life that you struggle to surrender. I've experienced that as well. I had a pornography addiction for a long, long, long time, and then went, you know, a decade without and then had a relapse, and like it it's complicated, right? It's like, well, do I love the Lord? Yes, absolutely. Um is it is it messy and complicated is is the world we live in and the sin we partake in, and all the thoughts and but yeah, it gets really, really messed up. And so I I I just love that aspect that even in in the midst of confusion and sin and all these other things, you know, the Lord is still there and He's still He doesn't walk away from us. Right? That's one of the I think biggest misconceptions we have in scripture is that you know, this idea that God, if we have sin in our lives, like He turns his back on us. In the story of the garden, like they hid from God.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know what I mean? He still showed up in the garden, but they hid from him in their shame. It wasn't the other way around. It wasn't like he looked at them and said, I I I gotta I can't be around you guys.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um so all this stuff just creates this really messy sort of reminds me of the prodigal son.
SPEAKER_02Prodigal is extravagant, it really should be prodigal God because he is an extravagant God. Right, his mercy, his grace waiting for us.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, he's patient, he's kind, he's understanding. Um and that doesn't mean that like he's he's love, like love and compassion. There's all these different concepts in our culture, and he loves us so much and he understands us, and yet, like you said, there's that still small voice. He never stops challenging us to be what he's called us to be.
SPEAKER_02And his love is long suffering. You know, a thousand years is a day to the Lord, yeah, you know, and he loves us so that he doesn't want one to perish. And when I came out of that relationship, God led me to Genesis 50, 20. I hadn't been in the Word in years, and it says, You meant to harm me, but God used your evil for good to the saving of many lives.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, the story of Joshua and his brothers when they come back.
SPEAKER_02And that's what I love. I'm just thinking about God being outside of time, seeing and not Joshua, Joseph, sorry.
SPEAKER_05My brain. I was like, oh, oh, it is all right. But the story of Joseph and his brothers, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just think about God being outside of time, seeing that time period where I'm in this, right? Knowing we had a march in Piedmont Park in Atlanta. I used to bring my girlfriend there. Now we are years later, and I'm here proclaiming freedom in Christ in Piedmont Park, and we're marching by the gay bars that I used to go into. And that is God's redemption, and that is God's story. And that's what gets me so excited for people wherever they're at, that God is outside of time. He sees the beginning from the end, and he knew, MJ, everything that you experienced. Now I can sit with people in the trenches of it and I can weep with them because I understand the cost of laying down what you feel that you've desired your whole life, potentially like myself, to be a consecrated single celibate person. And when people say there is not a real God, I say for 14 years, choosing Jesus, being single and celibate, there is a real living God because he is the only one that could keep me where I'm at right now. And that Jesus is real and he is the one who keeps us from stumbling. And I trust him with my whole entire life, and I would not be here if it were not for him. So he is real people because that is. I mean, that is so countercultural. That does not happen in our generation, you know, and that is Jesus. So yeah.
SPEAKER_05And so I want to touch on a few thoughts because uh and mainly I just want to keep hearing your story. So you said 14 years ago. 14 years ago, you had an encounter, you had a moment where everything changed. So let's let's go back to that. 14 years ago, what happened?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So we towards the end of our relationship actually started to pray for a way out. And God did that. Of your relationship, a way out of your relationship. Yes, with this woman.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02And so we knew it was the time and we had separated, we were in different states, and it was the last time I went and was with her, and we knew it was ending, but it was just I'm learning so much even about attachment 14 years later. Like there is so much, not even just the physical relationship, but the attachment in it. And it was so hard to detach. But I was driving back home and I heard the Lord say, You have to choose this day, life or death, blessings or curses. And I saw this line like drawn in the sand and I encountered Jesus. Like I saw Jesus and I saw his sacrifice for me for the first time, like the reality of what the cost was for him. Because, like I said earlier, it felt so costly for me to lay it down. And the Lord said to me, MJ, if you will lay down your sexuality, like I will not only take it, but I'm going to replace, I'm going to infill. I am going to bring restoration to so many areas. It's making me emotional because I've lived this, you know, for 14 years of this is going to be a process, right? It's not, it's not always easy. There's so many days I'm crying out, Jesus, like help me. Like it's hard at times, but it's so worth it. And so in that moment, I said for the first time in my life, God, you can have every part of me. Like I am yours. I am a willing vessel vessel to do your will.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'll never forget that moment. It was marking, like God said, you have to choose. You can't be lukewarm. You got to either be in or out. And of course, again, we stumble. A righteous man falls seven times, but he gets back up. But that I think there's a difference in completely turning. Like MJ, if you give this to me, you're not gonna turn fully back and be done. And so it was beautiful yet hard. And I will say I went to the school of the Holy Spirit. Like God was my disciple when that happened. I wasn't in a church.
SPEAKER_05I well, let's be honest, very few churches would have had a oh yeah, we have a program where like that's not you know what I'm saying? That that you are a trailblazer in that in that aspect, honestly. So yeah, so the Holy Spirit just discipled you directly and and was teaching you all kinds of things. And what I and just to add clarity, I'm sure everyone kind of caught it. You know, your story is not okay, so 14 years ago, I I I experienced the Lord, experienced the presence of Jesus, and he challenged me to lay this down, to say, I love you, but but you know, this is this is not right, this is not good, this is not what I want for your life because it's sin.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And you laid it down, and then you met a man and you started dating and you got married. And no, like but that's my point, is it's it's not a lot of people would assume, oh well, yeah, that then you Yeah. And that's not exactly what the story is. So like can you Which is beautiful. I agree. I agree, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, I laugh about that because man, that is something that so many people who come into, we call ourselves the freedom family, yeah, come into our family are really mishandled, in all honesty, by churches and pastors when they're coming very courageously. Anybody who opens up to you is being very courageous because this is something that is so hard. Like I said, I had so much shame. I wish I would have had someone safe in the church to be like, it is okay. And you're not so much worse off than every other sinner in this place. You know, it's it just felt that way. Yeah, I this is an abomination.
SPEAKER_05I won't I won't use any names, but we had a gentleman uh here at his hands that came up to me recently and shared that, and I prayed with him and we talked and I connected him to you. Yeah. Um, and and it's I'm super excited about that connection. Uh, but I was really grateful that he felt okay to share that. And we were able to I mean, yeah, because it's again, I I do not sit in a place of judgment over anyone. Yeah. You know, I tell people all the time, if not for the grace of Jesus, my own messages would convict me. If I was standing before the Lord and all you did was play the messages I've given on Sundays, it's like I haven't lived up to my own messages because I'm a sinner. Like we have stuff. I'm I'm not the judge. We're all in the process of sanctification. Sanctification is we God is working on us until we go to glory. Correct, correct. So I but but we all go to the Lord. We go to Him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And in His presence, you know, it's like His Word cuts through, you know, the the joint and marrow. Like His His truth it cuts through everything and it makes things clear. And it it to a certain degree, like you feel uncomfortable, like, oh, this needs to go. This isn't right. This isn't line, this doesn't line up with what you want for my life. You experience that. My point, you're saying people are mishandled.
SPEAKER_02Yes, because they're confessing, right? And then the first thing is, well, you'll be married. You'll be it's like I'm struggling with the same sex. I can't even go there right now. And you're telling me that it's it's kind of like behavior modification. Okay. If I can get you to act this way, look this way, even for people who are transgender, it's going to take them years to look like they're biological sex.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha.
SPEAKER_02Because they've changed their bodies so much. Yeah. And the church is saying, you got to change your name back, you got to look this way. Well, God works on the inside. Yeah. God works on the heart. And I've just seen a lot of people go back into the community for being mishandled because it is his loving kindness that leads us to repentance. And then it's his truth.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I always say that we try to put like the cart before the horse, right? The horse needs to lead, but we put truth before love.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And a lot of these people have now come out of a community that so love them, right? For being LGBT and they come into the church and people are so cold to them. Maybe it's fear, maybe they haven't experienced it. You know, a lot of people talk about homosexuality, but not other sins. That's why I love this church. It's like, no, it's sexual sin is sexual sin, you know? And so I think it's so important of how we encounter and how we open our doors. Because firstly, I needed to know I was loved. And then it was the truth of Jesus that transformed me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Things started to change in me because it was an inward heart change. Then the outward came. And a lot of people in church, because of fear, because that root is control, right? That root is control. I want to change all the outside, but Jesus is like, hey, I see the inside.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I know some of the most heartfelt Jesus people that still look trans in their false identity, but they're on their journey. They stopped taking testosterone, hormones, you know, and it's so beautiful to see the transformation, but a lot are cut short because of how people are interacting.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, it makes sense. It's something that uh Well and I think for a lot of people it's a f It is a if you've never experienced same-sex attraction, it feels very foreign. It feels very, you know, I don't know how I don't have a category for that in my own life. And when something feels foreign, people are more than they're just much more likely to treat it as a I mean, I guess as like a another right word, but almost like a disease. You know, it's like, oh, well, we c well fix this, let's fix this fast. And like you said, it's a it's a deep process. It's a a lot of untangling, and it has to be done often in probably a very gentle way. And what you said about love and truth, you know, it's interesting. Um I heard someone say years ago, and I this always stuck with me that you have to have both, obviously. Jesus had both. Yes. Right. But I always think back to the story of the woman caught in adultery. First, he loved her.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Now he didn't stop short and then not deliver truth. It wasn't like he just said, I don't condemn you.
SPEAKER_02And then Well and he knew all of her sin when he was loving her. Correct. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05He's it, and that's it. Yeah, usually we love people out of ignorance. We love people because we don't know that much about them. And the more we learn about them, the less we love them. Um God knows everything about us and loves us anyway. But but then he but he started with love. Like before he told her, Stop sinning, like go and sin no more. First, he stood in the gap for her, he saved her life, he put himself in the house. He showed her grace, showed her grace, loved her, and and and risked a lot in doing that. And so I heard this pastor say once that um, you know, love is a bridge that we build to deliver truth across. And if you don't build that bridge, the truth just falls in the gap. And on the flip side, he said sometimes people are really big on the love part, they just never deliver truth with it. And that can be a case. But I think in in this situation, what you're describing with the people that you're dealing with, I mean, you have to have you couldn't do what you do and it'd be effective if you did not deeply love the people and and the Lord didn't deeply love them, and they experienced that. Because like you said, they're coming out of a community that is super accepting and you know, and that's a hard thing to to leave. Yeah. So anyway, sorry, my I'm rambling. Um so 14 years ago you had this encounter, and your story, like you said, has not been, oh yeah, so now you know then that I got married and whatever. You have you described it as a single celibate life.
SPEAKER_02Called a singleness, like Paul said, it'd be better if you were single because you have a soul devotion to the Lord that when you're married, you're divided, which is understandable because you're one with your wife, you know. And so and so I'm grateful I I have the freedom to go. Yeah, you know, I have so many freedoms in singleness. Now, is it hard? Yeah, as well. I think there's a blessing to both. I think there's hardship, whether you're married or single, to both. Right, you know, and I think we're supposed to come together more. Like I wish more families were open to bringing more singles in. And I wish as much as marriage is talked about at the same time, there are people who don't even struggle with same-sex attraction sitting in those pews who just want to hear, like, you're okay. Like, it's okay, you know, that some people are called to singleness. I mean, look at all the disciples, you know, they spent their lives preaching the gospel unto martyrdom, being single, being single, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's right. That's a great point. So that's that's a great point. Yeah, Peter's the only one. And and so for you from 14 years ago, you've been like you've you've set aside relationships in the romantic sense. And you've just given your soul and total devotion to the Lord and to what he's calling you to do, which is, I mean, I remember sharing this a little bit with uh you and some of your friends were on an uh uh we did a video years ago for a series we were doing, and I just remember like being blown away by I can't remember her name. You had a woman, Kim, yes, and she was talking about it like what a beautiful gift we get to give to God that we're putting this as like an offering at his feet, and how precious of a thing to say, and how many how few people be willing to do this, honestly. Heterosexual people will be willing to do this, right? I'll take my sexual desires, I'll take my sexuality, whatever words we want to use, and I'm I'm laying that at your feet.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I'm your servant. And I mean, that is a huge thing to give to God. It's really powerful. It's really powerful.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think it's so counter, right? Pride is I, self, kingdom is humility. Jesus came as a servant, and he is the king of kings. Like every knee is going to bow. Correct. But he went low and he was humble in heart. You know, and that's what is so beautiful. Because I used to live every time I'm getting to evangelize, talk to anybody, I used to live for MJ, my kingdom, me, self, pride.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02And then transferring over the greatest gift ever given, free gift, Jesus dying for me, for us, then into the kingdom of humility, that it's no longer about me. It's about God. And God is the one who is the creator. And I trust even in marriage, if God had that for me. Right. God, it's not what I want in the flesh, women. God, if you have a man for my life, then I surrender to that too. Absolutely. And I know you're not going to force it. You know, I know there will be attraction, and I'm just going to love you, Jesus. And it says, seek first the kingdom, and these things shall follow. And maybe in MJ's life, that's marriage. If not, I'm have the fullness of Jesus. And I think that that is what is so interesting. Even in singleness, it's like everybody's like, well, Jesus needs to be enough for you. And then I look at marriages and I'm like, is Jesus number one? Even in marriage, he's supposed to be number one. And so people are judging and pointing out homosexuals, but I'm like, in your marriage, you might have an idol there. Might be your husband or wife. I mean, I've never struggled with that at all.
SPEAKER_05As a marriage, I mean, I think that I would say in the 20 years I've been married, I it's always been in the right order. Always. No, no, I mean, I was uh, I mean, still to this day, I I I love my wife so much. And I I you know I was so infatuated with her when we were younger, right? Because it was like young love and she walked on water basically. Not really, like Jesus is the one that walks on water, but there's definitely if you would have asked, if I can look back at peers of my life, go, was Jesus number one? It's like, no. Um, and even still, there's times where, yeah, in marriage, and I would say she would agree. I mean, there's so many times where I know my wife is so unique, she would love to spend like an entire day. No one bother her, just open her Bible and just journal and read. Yes. But then I come in and I have, hey, I need, you know, and there's a balancing you have to do. It's tough. But you're you've just laid that at the feet of the Lord. I love it so much. Years ago, uh, there's this picture I had of like a room a house full of rooms, and you know, we we and the house kind of represents us. It's not a very deep metaphor, but you know, it's like a lot of us are good at letting Jesus in, but we let him in like we let people into our houses. Like there's rooms you can be in. You know, make yourself at home in this space that's been prepared for you, but please don't go open that door. And upstairs is off limits, you know, like it would be rude as a house guest to just walk around and start opening doors.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05But Jesus, uh, he's bold. And when you let him into your life, he is not content to just sit in the living room and chill. Like he wants to get in every single room, every single closet, every single drawer, right? And it's not this judgmental, you know, no, you know, we tend to be like, Lord, you can't go there because I'm so ashamed of it, or I or I want control. I don't trust you with that. It's like if we surrender and open the door, he's got plans for all those places. He's got plans for all that. And it's just so cool.
SPEAKER_02Um, I want to- And he's so gentle in that. He is a good shepherd. Yeah, he knocks at the door, he doesn't kick it down, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And that's I think the fear is that Jesus will just come and and you know, he goes in the right order, too.
SPEAKER_02Like he may Well, not everything's gotta change right here, right now, and that's just pressure of man, you know?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So And I do think sometimes there are stories of of change that are while while inspiring, I've known a lot of people who have had stories of like instantaneous total transformation. And those churches like to celebrate those, right? This person, but I've seen times where people have been put on a pedestal fast.
SPEAKER_02Very fast, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And then all of a sudden, oh, five years later, some of those behaviors have resurfaced and are lingering.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_05And this story of instant transformation, while it made for a really great video, actually, in practicality and life, these issues take longer to iron out. So yeah, it's all good.
SPEAKER_02There's so many layers in long term, yeah.
SPEAKER_05I'm just by the way, I ramble, so apologies. I want to touch on something though. This is something, and I'd love your input on this for people that are watching. You mentioned identity. Um, in I in today's culture, your sexuality is so deeply connected to your sense of identity. Like that is a I I would say that's a pretty new concept in like human history, where in ancient times it seems like sexual behavior was viewed more as behavior, right? It was like Paul was saying, stop doing these things. And not just homosexuality, heterosexuality, and all kinds of like stop being promiscuous. But it was viewed as behavior. In our culture now, it's so different because culturally we have tied sexual desire to such a depth of who you are as a person that for most people, changing that quote unquote behavior is essentially like denying the core of who you are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05How do you in your ministry, like how do you how do you grapple with that?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think it all, like you're saying, comes down to identity. You know, even with Satan and his kingdom. It's like if I can get who you are attached to whatever that sin is, then I've got you. And I think even like you said earlier about the garden, like going all the way back to the apple, it's like he got Eve to question who God said she was and who he is.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because he said you'll be like God.
SPEAKER_02And so now we're seeing it, you know, all these generations later.
SPEAKER_05That's good.
SPEAKER_02And even what you said, even about gay marriage becoming legalized, I think the authorities in the land and what we open ourselves up to. And then all of a sudden being trans, being bi is trending. Like I remember in high school, all these girls would just kiss other girls to get attention from other guys. But I'm like, in the spirit realm, you've now opened yourself up to something that you were never supposed to be open up to, even if it's just fun or you're not really into it. You don't have that attraction. I saw so many people be kind of taken away by these trends, you know, that were happening in our society as we have become more godless. You know, it says in the latter days, as Jesus returns, people will be lovers of themselves, like they'll grow cold, you know, and and we're seeing that. Yes, we are. You know, we're seeing a lot of lawlessness, we're seeing a lot of just pride, just sin out in our streets.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's kind of like in Romans 1, where it sort of lays out what happens when a it's if you read Romans 1 this way, it's like when people reject God, when they reject their creator, yeah, and the Lord essentially goes, Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Romans 1, I'll give you over to it. I'll give you over to it.
SPEAKER_05Like and what happens, and basically it starts with sexual sin is listed really quickly. Um, and by the end of it, it's like they lose their minds. Yeah. Like they can have no concept of truth or what's right or what's wrong, and lawlessness and all this kind of stuff. It just kind of goes, and there are a lot of uh real-world parallels to that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05For sure. But I imagine it's difficult for for you. Um, and maybe difficult is not the right word, it's interesting at the very least. You're having conversations with people uh in these marches. Um and I'm sure for people, this is like, I mean, you're you're not messing with this, isn't like, hey, you need to clean your garage up a little bit. Like, hey, you need to do your taxes. But it this is like core stuff for people.
SPEAKER_02What's what's that like? I feel like it's the journey.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, so I'm so thankful for Freedom March. God has really set us up to be a family, to disciple, to connect with pastors and churches who really take a stance of wanting to love, wanting to invite. You know, that's why if you're in Atlanta, Georgia, come to his hands church. Love this place. Yeah, you know, and I think it's it's really the long haul with people. I have so many girls. I have three sets of girls right now that have been in relationships together for years, but they know MJ is here, that MJ is a safe place. They know that I want them to live, even how God's called me to live, and they know that themselves, but it's like journeying with them. And I and it really is good news. When we come to these cities, we're preaching good news to people, you know, eternal life, the water, you know, that satisfies, like calling people. And I think that that's what's so important about even just being a believer, a Christian, like the joy, because we're calling people to surrender something, like I shared in my own story, right? To to let something go. It reminds me of a Muslim like who comes to Christ. Like, this thing's gotta be real because I might lose my life for this, my literal life, my family. And that's how people because, right, this identity they've been so um like uh anchored to that it's like this has gotta be real for me to lay this down. No, that's so true.
SPEAKER_05I actually just did a God story, I haven't we haven't posted it yet, but with a friend named Vahid, and he leads a ministry that's all about he he grew up in Iran and then went to Turkey, found Jesus in Turkey, and obviously for him, you know, growing up in a Muslim country and now being you know extremely outward in his faith, and his whole ministry is actually helping churches in America know how to even speak and share their faith with the Muslim community because it's often you know American Christians are are evangelism is probably not our strong suit.
SPEAKER_02Um we're getting there, we're getting out to the street, so I'm excited. That's right.
SPEAKER_05We uh we like to go to church and listen to a pastor tell us, you know, whatever, but it's harder for people to talk, especially people of other faiths. But anyway, you're right. Like for him, this costs something. And it does. And I think it it really does for everyone if they realize it or not. But for for you and for the ministry you're doing, I mean, there's sort of a upfront. This is what we're saying. This is this is the cost, but this is also what what you replace it with. You know what I mean? Which is uh which is so much better. But yeah, that's an interesting I'm sure that's that's uh I'm sure you have some of the most interesting conversations. Like almost on a daily basis. I would just love to hear those conversations because I'm sure they're amazing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02They say it's not what you say, but how people feel, you know. And I think it's just our heart in loving the lost to that place of repentance and then the truth.
SPEAKER_05And like you say, they know you're there. They they know that your love for them is not conditional on whether or not they have made this decision or are in the midst of it, or they're still wrestling with it. Like you love you love them through that wrestling and that tension. And we have to be like that as people, we have to be like that as parents, we have to be like that as friends. Um we have to be like that with ourselves. I mean, in a weird way, it's like you have to give yourself permission to wrestle a little bit. You know what I mean? Um that's so cool.
SPEAKER_02Love is patient and it's kind, and that's the love of God, and we need that towards ourselves first, so that then we can pour that out to others.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So let's just recap. Um by the way, I've enjoyed this very much. Thank you so far.
SPEAKER_02Me as well.
SPEAKER_05Thanks. Uh so 14 years ago, you felt this calling on your life and you made these major changes. When did you start and when did you help co-found Freedom March? You said it was 2018. Okay. So some time time elapsed from when you made that decision to starting Freedom March.
SPEAKER_02So I first had uh, so when I had that encounter with Jesus, I also saw my heart. And I felt like the Lord said, I'm taking your heart out of the deception, out of the weeds, and I'm planting it in my garden to flourish in who you really are as my daughter. And he said, You are the first of many uprooted hearts. So I'm literally seeing my heart get uprooted and replanted. And so, yes, and replanted. And so I started a nonprofit ministry where I would help other women with unwanted same-sex attraction and connect them with resources, mentoring, all of that through that filmed documentary called Here's My Heart, a documentary of surrendering to freedom. It had 12 former LGBT testimonies in it.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02Wrote a book. I mean, all this stuff I would have never thought I did. That's the seek versus the kingdom, and these things will be. I had no grid for anything that God would call me to do. I just said yes.
SPEAKER_05You said yes, but when you say yes and you give it a whole yes, that's a powerful thing.
SPEAKER_02And from that documentary, Jeffrey McCall, who was a former uh trans woman, so he is biologically male. Okay. He transitioned a female and transitioned back. At the premiere of that documentary, he said, MJ, I believe God is calling us to go out into the cities and share our stories. And I jumped on board with that. I I had been to Pride, you know, pride is in every city. Pride is sponsored by every place. We bank, we go get our coffee. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_05No, it's a shop. No, you're right. I mean, it is it's a well-funded and and heavily subsidized.
SPEAKER_02And so when he said that, I heard Freedom March. And I connected with the vision that as long as there's pride, oh, I feel the Lord right now. As long as there's a pride parade, there will be a Freedom March in the earth. And been faithful to that now for eight years.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_02Uh, we've gone to LA, we've been in Atlanta, we've gone to Dallas, we just did Portland. Next year we're going to New York. I'm super excited for that. Fall 2026. We'll be in New York. God's called us there. We've been in Florida, just all over the United States. And I know people are calling us out there, even in the world, to come and do Freedom Arch. They actually have one in Korea they've done for a couple of years. So it's it is really picking up, and it's so beautiful to see. Um, we had like free coffee at this last one. Just we try to draw people in, you know, we try to do things, you know, for the community and yeah, and get people to come and hear the testimonies and and hear the gospel.
SPEAKER_05So that is awesome. That is awesome. I'm so excited. I'm excited to see what's next. I uh, you know, I I just I will say this as a pastor. Um, I'm really grateful for you because I I I mean to a certain degree, I know the Holy Spirit will give you the words for whatever you need, right? Like Jesus, one of my favorite things about Jesus is he told the disciples, when you get arrested, don't worry about what you're gonna say, which sounds like terrible advice. It just sounds like, no, I mean, why don't you just tell me what I should say? But he's like, because the Holy Spirit will give you the words. And so I do trust as a as a not even just a pastor, as a person, as a follower of Jesus, I trust that if God brings someone into a conversation with me and I don't necessarily have the experience, I can trust the Holy Spirit to to give me the words to say to that person in that moment at the same time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05It is really, really great to know that there are people that have a deep understanding of of situations and and issues that you you maybe have a periphery understanding of, but you've never been in it. And it has been such a blessing. Like when I had that young man come to me a few weeks ago and say, Hey, can I can you pray with me and talk with me? And he he he opened his heart up and he expressed it and he said, I have these desires. I but he's like he I said I don't want to. Because I know I know who God is.
SPEAKER_04And yeah, and he's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_05And it was so great. It wasn't like uh I wasn't trying to just shift responsibility, but I prayed with him and we talked, and I said, Hey, um I know this person named MJ. I think you should talk to her. And what was so cool about that is that you came to church. This isn't your your normal church, um, but you came here in person to meet with him after church. And that meant the world to him. That not only was it just a phone call or a text message or something, you were willing to talk about love, you were willing to go out of your way for one person.
SPEAKER_02And that and that Jesus at least the 99 goes after that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, I can't say as a as a pastor that meant the world to me. Like I'm I'm gonna tear up. Like uh I get I got chills now because you know it is one thing to lead a movement and to lead an organization, but it's a whole other thing to love people and to go and meet them where they're at and if they're struggling. And you did that, and you do that, I'm sure, very I'm sure you have a lot of divine appointments. Um, but it's really cool to see, and we're excited as a church to support you and and to partner with you and I'm sure in all kinds of ways. I know we have done some stuff with you in the past and partnered, and we're just looking forward to it.
SPEAKER_02You sewed so much into this last March, I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_05Well, we're here for you guys, and I think you have you've given your yes to God. And when someone is called by the Lord to do something difficult and they give God their yes, I think it's up to the church to come around those people and say, Yeah, well, we'll give, we'll say yes with you. And so, you know, let us know if you need anything. Anything else you want to share as we wrap this up? Like anything you'd want to put out for.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just want to speak, I think, to parents and then those who might see this podcast who might be struggling with their sexuality. Um, I just want to say if you're a parent, like don't give up. Just keep standing for your child, keep praying. You're not alone. There are so many parents that don't know what to do, don't know what to say, but God is with you. And I just want you to just hear my words. I hope they're just comfort to you to not give up that this isn't the end. Most people would have said I was too far gone to be in the place that I am today. But I had believing parents, I had praying parents, and so did uh my ex. So um your prayers matter. God's with you, and don't give up. And then to the person who might be seeing this podcast who has a similar story to me, like you're not too far gone. Like, don't let shame bury you. Please share with somebody, open up to somebody like this kid we keep talking about with you. Like it really does help. It really does relieve a lot of the burden. And I pray for the church that we will be safe, that we will be available, and that we will walk the journey because there is a table set for the church. And it's interesting you just brought that up. That's one of my main things, even as we go out with freedom marches, we're very under-supported, you know, and it's sad because no one's really doing what we're doing. No, yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_05I'm not aware of anybody else doing what you're doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And um, I'm just so thankful for the ones who are saying yes, you know, um, to saying we want to be involved, we want to be a part, we want to see this rainbow revival that God has um to come to pass. And so, yes, again, just thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_05All right, thank you so much, MJ. Appreciate it. Um, you got your your little Jesus on the table. Got Jesus. There we go. There we go. Good stuff. Appreciate it. Thanks a lot.