His Hands Church
His Hands Church
Midweek Podcast - Navigating Teenage Identity
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A discussion on approaching LGBTQ+ conversations within the church and with your teens. This episode explores how these discussions naturally lead to deeper conversations about identity and acceptance.
I love our church. I've been part of this church for 20 years, and it's been a very interesting church to be part of because we are a church that is very focused on loving people, period, welcoming anyone. And we've had a a history as a church that's had a lot of people walk through the doors that are not quote unquote church people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um on the flip side, we have tons of people in our church that are quote unquote church people. We're not we're also not a church that's like we don't want you if you're you better be you struggling in this specific way. We're a church for people. Yeah. And just like Jesus had like notorious sinners that were part of his his group, he also had lifelong dedicated like followers of his of the Jewish faith. They were all they were all together. And it gets kind of messy. And for you, specifically as youth pastor, it gets really messy when you have kids involved. And so when it comes to any issues related to LGBT, we are a church that teaches what scripture teaches. We believe that God's plan is for us to be in healthy human sexual relationships or to be single, and healthy human relationships would be monogamous, heterosexual relationships under the covenant of marriage. But we live in a culture that has completely different values, and very often people come in with those things so ingrained, or in the case of you with youth, you know, these new ideas that are so exciting and so attractive because it create it makes you it can check the rebellion box, it can also check the be accepted by other people box. That dealing with these issues on a person-to-person basis becomes pretty tough. Alright, so Madison and I were talking. Madison, you're the youth pastor here. I'm the pastor here at his hands. And we're having a conversation about uh LGBT related things because you just got done talking to the students about that, and we're about to talk to parents about that in an upcoming gathering. So we're recording this as kind of like a just keeping that conversation going, but also talking through it. If you missed it, if you couldn't be there. We are the it looks like we had a new set, and we really didn't. Yeah. It's the just the we're in the corner, and then Zach put bookshelves and it looks great. It looks awesome. Good job, Zach. Good job, Zach. So a way to change things up without even being asked to. Second of all. Second of all.
SPEAKER_03This is our, I guess, third conversation about our sex series that we did with the mini series. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Mini sex series or a sex mini.
SPEAKER_03It was a th probably five-week series. It's not really a mini series. Was it five weeks for you guys?
SPEAKER_05I thought it was three.
SPEAKER_03It's three, it was three official weeks.
SPEAKER_05Gotcha.
SPEAKER_03Then like one setup week and then like a Yeah, we did Genesis one and two as kind of like what we're made for, and then let that roll into our sex series.
SPEAKER_05And then this week you're kind of doing a QA. QA, whatever. Yep. Whatever. Whatever.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So we've had questions texted in. But um, so on Sunday we just had the conversation about LGBT and uh on what this week. With the students. You're talking about the students. And so we have a parent meeting coming up uh and we're gonna have that same conversation with them. Yes. Or a similar conversation.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, they were gonna let them ask questions and uh and so we thought it'd be helpful to actually film a little podcast, record a podcast about that very subject, because I think in uh church world, this gets complicated and messy and has been a uh a pretty big hot button topic for the entire time I've been the entire time I've been in I've been in full-time ministry now for almost 20 years, and it's kind of been like one of the biggest issues. And the reason I even say that is like if any prominent pastor ever gets on a news uh the view or like one of the first questions that they're hit with is what are your views on do you think homosexuality is a sin? You know, like it's so it's a big this whole topic has just been a big one. So what what do you want to talk about?
SPEAKER_03Well, first are are you gonna be there on Wednesday to be part of this conversation?
SPEAKER_05So interestingly, my daughter, uh Lily, has her dance awards banquet. Okay. So this is like their gala after they do their they had their big performance last week, and this is the last thing they do. And Megan is supposed to be here on Wednesday night because she leads the women's group. We have this, and she's like, what are we gonna do? One of us needs to be there, and I was like, can't be me. I did. I was like, because I don't think it's fair. I A, I would trust your answers, sure. But I just feel like that's a it's loaded.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you need to you you need backup. Correct.
SPEAKER_05There needs to be a wingman. Yeah, and I'm I'm gonna be there for you. So absolutely I'm excited about the conversation.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Uh I guess for us, we're talking specifically to parents with teenagers, and I think what's important about that is like the perspectives on this from sixth grade to twelfth grade, like can so drastically change just because you're going through puberty and you're experiencing either the discomfort with your body or the attraction toward other people. Sure. So this comes up really naturally.
SPEAKER_05It comes up really naturally, but it also is reflective. Um I mean, it's a broader topic, right? Because what our views I mean, I would talk to any I think the the core of this, there's a foundation of what do we believe about this based on our faith and why. Yep. Because I I mean, do you want to talk about that?
SPEAKER_03What are your what do you what do you want to where do you want to go? I think the where do I want to go with the parents? What's hard is the range of people who are experiencing what. So like I know there's parents in the room that their child is like fully presenting as the other gender or whatever. Right. But I know there's other parents in the room that are just trying to equip their kid to like be able to talk about this with other students. Right. And so where we went on Sunday was basically, like you're saying, the core foundational aspects of our faith. So we aren't um I was gonna say we aren't straight. We aren't straight as our identity. Like I'm not straight as the top identifier of who I am.
SPEAKER_05Your sexuality is not the the core part of who you are.
SPEAKER_03My sexuality or my sex status or whatever it might be, my preferences when it comes to those things, um, or my discomfort when it comes to those things isn't what defines me. I'm not just a person who has sexual relations or attractions. That's not what defines me. Um what defines me are those, you know, image of God things, those uh things that come from scripture. And if I belong to Jesus, even more so uh because he's awakened his spirit in me. Right. And so I think anchoring the conversation in that concept is a very helpful place to make it.
SPEAKER_05I mean, someone could probably hear what you just said, yeah, and if they have certain filters, be like, he's saying that I am straight by that for the record. Well, I here's this uh I'll use another example. So um if someone describes themselves as a conservative Christian, like politically, okay. Um what I my first challenge to anyone would be, and by the way, I'm super conservative politically. Like you know that, like I'll talk about it. Um our church is not a political vehicle, that's not something I don't use the stage, but but you know, you know my personal like political leanings and whatnot. But what I would tell anyone is like, you don't put anything on the line above like Christian. You know what I mean? Like if you are conservative, because if you say, well, because I'm a Christian, because I interpret scripture this way, it leads me. That that's one thing. But anytime we put any identifier above the fact that we follow Jesus, we're gonna get into trouble. Um, because what you're ultimately saying is you're a follower of Jesus first and foremost. And then that should influence everything else about who you are. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. And for teenagers that might not be followers of Jesus to just say, hey, maybe the thing that you're elevating to the place of prime importance is something that can change in the future. And to say, like, well, I'm really into death metal, so my whole life is gonna look like death metal or something. That's how teenagers tend to be. Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well, I like this band, so I've changed everything about my physical appearance to match the yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And no offense, uh, maybe uh just to be frank about it, it's like the gay community has been a very welcoming place for teenagers who are very lost. And so when they elevate that element of themselves to the prime importance, they instantly find community. And it's much harder to find community with like, hey, I'm struggling with things that I don't know how to deal with. That's mostly a private experience. But when you say, hey, I'm gay, or hey, I'm trans, uh, that's a very uh celebrated and well-come.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you're going to have an instant group of people who just based on your like declaration of that, you're one of us now. Right.
SPEAKER_03And for a kid, I mean, man, kids aren't really any different now than they were when I was a kid or when anyone they long to be accepted and loved and part of a group and accepted and loved and welcomed by their peers and culture, but then instantly puts parents and teachers and uh, you know, youth pastors, pastors on the back foot because we've had a very um hard time responding to this in a loving way. And so it's hard to be like, no, I'm not gonna call you the name that you're calling me. And that's something that's like rebellion against adults is like a normal thing of for teenagers, and so it instantly puts us in that category, the adults, and the kids kind of get to be their own group and you just don't understand. Right. And now I'm mad at you. Um, and so it's a very interesting for teenagers specifically, it's a very like fraught and uh intense place to be.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. And I'm gonna hit I'm gonna hit the pause. I do this every once in a while. I'm gonna hit the pause button and tell Zach. When I say hit the pause button, I don't mean pause the actual like keep this going. So don't pause, I guess. That's the wrong analogy. But I'm about to say something, put it at the front, and then as it's so it'll set like context. Okay. Makes sense. And then if you're listening to this now, just just you're okay, here you go. You already heard this once, but it's quick. All right, so Madison and I were talking. Madison, you're the youth pastor here. I'm the pastor here at his hands, and we're having a conversation about uh LGBT related things because you just got done talking to the students about that, and we're about to talk to parents about that in an upcoming gathering. So we're recording this as kind of like a just keeping that conversation going, but also talking through it. And if you missed it, if you couldn't be there at our church, it's a helpful way to be prior to that. So we are a church that has a reputation for being extremely loving and welcoming. Would you agree with that? Yes. Yep. We are also a church that teaches a biblical view of human sexuality. Yep. Right. So we have taught from the stage a multitude of times. It's not like a topic we jump on every week, but we did a series on it a few years ago. And if it's ever come up in a we we talk about it, that God's plan for human sexuality would be monogamous heterosexual relationships, marriage, lifelong covenant of marriage, marriage, marriage or singleness, yeah, as a that that is an another one. Um we love everybody. So if someone's here and they say, Hey, I'm gay or whatever, um, if you have a student that is identifies in that way, we don't kick you out of the church. We don't go get right. We also don't affirm that that is God's will for you. So we find ourselves we we love and accept people, even when we don't agree with them or endorse what they do, but we are a church that teaches a biblical view of healthy human sexuality, and that creates some tension sometimes because we're a church that has lots of wide variety of people from a wide variety of backgrounds. We do love everybody, but then when we teach on things like this, it can create it's challenging for some people. Yeah. And so that's part of why we're having this conversation.
SPEAKER_03I think the sexuality conversation um can be had with Christians. Yeah. Like, and you can kind of identify like there's healthy sexuality, there's sinful sexuality. Um, that goes with gay, that goes with straight. Like, yeah, there's a way to express your desires in a way that are like I've got buddies who um are same-sex attracted, um, and that's part of their sin struggle, but it's not part of their lifestyle or the way that they enact. Uh we've talked about being addicted to pornography, and it's part of our sin struggle, but it's not my identity. That's not who I am as a person.
SPEAKER_05And I will say that um, I mean, even back up, I I've talked about this before, but it's something I really enjoy talking about. Um the new thing in modern culture is not the behavior at all. Yeah. Um it's it's not. Like for as long as we have history, there have been people who have engaged with things outside of what we just described, as like the right. The new thing in history, though, is uh is connecting that behavior to the core part of who you are. Exactly. That that is your identity. So when Paul is writing in the New Testament and he's listing out um homosexuality and or something like related to that sexual morality, which isn't just homosexuality, it's like heterosexual sexual morality. It's always listed and described, it's it's behavior. And there this is something that you are doing, right? That you should not be doing. Where it gets tough in our society is that our society has championed this idea, um, and this is we have to understand it, let's just be honest, this is a cultural value. This is not a something that's been this way for the course of human history, this isn't even something that exists in all cultures. But our culture has really championed this idea that no, the deepest part of who you are is your sexuality. That is who you are. Right. So to deny those desires is to deny your very being.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So that's the direction that we went with the high schoolers and the middle schoolers was um I actually shared the story of Abram and how his name is changed to Abraham. And, you know, for trans communities, the name change thing is a huge element of presenting a certain way. Right. And so you kind of landed on like God is the one who holds the keys to changing names. Um, you know, Simon his whole life. Um Shimon means to the to listen, the listener. Uh my son's name Simon. And so he goes from the listener to the rock when he's named Peter. Peter. And so even what he knew his whole life and his lifestyle and his identity, like when he meets Jesus and has encounters with Jesus, that's when it can change. Um, so that same thing happens to Abraham, and Abraham's identity, you know, is very tied to his name, his father of many, the name that God gives him. Father of nations. Yes, and before he even has kids. Exactly. And then when he does have kids, and this is where like this is kind of like the center center point of the message for us was like he has Isaac, and even Isaac that is embracing God's identity that God gave Abraham and is a gift from God, even that must be like laid down and being open-handed with that. And God says, like, hey, sacrifice your son, he's like, Okay, God's gonna provide some house.
SPEAKER_05He knows God's nature is not, he's not a pagan God who demands human sacrifice. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03But he does pass the test and does live open-handed and is to the point where he would have obeyed God and imagined resurrection or obeyed God and you know, something stops at the last minute. And so even something that, you know, our identities can be so even good, because we can like harp on these sinful ones, and the sinful ones justifiably so need to be addressed. But if our identities, even if they're good, become the thing that we're worshiping, and it's like things associated with that identity, and we're not surrendering every aspect of that to the Lord, we're missing out on the identity that He has for us and the plan that He has for us. And so um obviously the sexuality conversation is very much a um behavior thing, and scripture addresses it as a behavior, but since culture addresses it as such an identity thing, we went there with that and said, Yeah, you have to like this is um bigger than this is more like core faith stuff. And so if you're not a Christian, I'm not expecting you to surrender your identity to to Jesus. Like, you know, pro basketball player or excellent musician or like all of those things might be the highest aim of your life if you don't have the Lord with you. Right. But when you do have the Lord with you, he asks you to surrender your guitar or whatever it might be in service of him. And a lot of the times he transforms our desires, he uh transforms the way we think from the inside out and gives us a purpose that's bigger than we would have thought. Abraham was living with his parents until he was 75 years old. He probably didn't expect to have this amazing back half of his life where he's like the main character of the Bible.
SPEAKER_05Culturally different back in those times. It wasn't like he was a deadbeat son who had failed to launch.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but it's it's still um But he had no kids. Life had not gone. Life had not gone the way he lived up to his name. Exactly. And so um for everyone, it's about surrendering that identity. And I think for parents, this is so much more of a discipleship issue about Jesus. And I think you can have conflict about sexuality with your kids if they're struggling with that. But I don't think that that's gonna that's gonna stick. I don't think that that's gonna be you're not gonna convince your kid to stop being gay by some compelling argument. But if you're sharing the love of Jesus and communicating his truth in a consistent way that is not surrendering your values, but is also saying, like, hey, God loves you. He sat with people who were sinful and people would have cast aside. Um that's kind of the lane to go. And so I I don't know, it always feels like a a little bit of uh I've gone back and forth on like what names do we call certain students just because there's this element of like, am I placating them?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we have a we have a large youth group, right? And um and you know, in a large youth group with a church like ours, we have some kids who are like die hard, love Jesus, yeah, definitely have committed their lives to him, have been baptized, um, and they are serving even on teams at times and doing things like that. And then we have other kids who who come, their parents bring them, and they come, they they probably enjoy. I mean, I was a youth pastor for a long time. I had kids like this that they enjoy the the camaraderie, the the there's a love and a support that's there. There's kind of a you know that there's people here who are for you. Right. Um, but they don't they haven't made these decisions yet.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. And they're like there with their parents or they're there with their parents.
SPEAKER_05Their parents drive them, they they're required to. Um, but they haven't made these decisions yet, and they might identify in it in a different way. So let me ask you a question. So if a student comes up to you, um you you kind of open that door, but like student comes up to you and says, Hey, I'd like to be called this. What is your response?
SPEAKER_03So do I know the student or do I not know the student? Because we take it case by case, honestly, is the the real answer is case by case week by week, because having the confrontation as our first encounter might not be the thing that uh Okay. So if I know the student and they start telling me that they're living by a different name.
SPEAKER_05So this is like in this scenario, you're saying it's a student I've known for a long time. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03And now they are saying, hey, yeah, even if it's a nickname, I question it. Yeah. So even if it's like a um like a girl, you know, sharing another name that's a girl name, but I know isn't her middle name or isn't her first name, I ask her about it because there might be more going on. It might be just some goofy thing people started calling you. It might be that you're being bullied and everyone calls you this and you're trying to have to like reappropriate it. Right. Um, a lot of the time those conversations can be like, no, I'm not gonna call you that because I've known you as this since you were born. Or let me just double check with your parents. We just want to honor what they what they do. Yep. Um, and I've had conversations with parents where like, I don't know what that's about. Just call them their real name. And then a month later, they're not, it's not a problem. Now we have had students show up where it's like physically they look like the gender they're presenting as, and they kind of keep a low profile, and they give me, you know, a male name if they're female, or a female name if they're a male, and it's a um you have suspicions, but you haven't really dove into it, and then you start that process with the family of going like, hey, where is so-and-so at and having those conversations. But I probably wouldn't be like, No, what's your birth certificate say? Right.
SPEAKER_05So in this scenario, you're it's the first time you've met the person. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03But then as time goes on, yeah, it opens up a discipleship process with the family, more so than even with the student, because usually that student isn't super open to sure having those conversations. Right.
SPEAKER_05Have you had that happen? Whereas time has gone on, you've said, hey, let's talk. Yeah. Yeah. How does that go?
SPEAKER_03And what what do you say? Every degree of good and bad. Yeah, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_05I've been in the similar similar conversations with adults. But like, but like, so give me, we don't have to use a name or anything like that. But like, so my my I think my main point is I know your heart. Like you are, you want to disciple children to know Jesus. And you recognize that not every kid who shows up, A, has already done that. Exactly. And if you expect, look, if you the New Testament, let's use the example. It was written to Christians. Like when Paul is right, specifically the letters, let's say. I mean, I think you could argue that some of the gospels are written.
SPEAKER_03Luke, Luke is the big question, like who is this written for? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Correct. Um it's written to evangelize, yeah, right. But like Paul's letters are written, are written to Christians, basically, like, hey, because you're a Jesus follower.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And there's a passage in Second Corinthians, I might be getting that wrong, where it's like, I'm not saying judge the outsiders by our standards. I'm saying if anyone on the inside claims to know Christ and still commits to these behaviors and whatever Corinthians are, you know, a little bit wild, like, have nothing to do with them. And that's the thing that's like, okay, that's like it's an in-house conversation versus.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so in recognizing so when it it would be crazy to to expect non-believers to live as believers. Now, obviously, there are some moral values that you know our faith kind of Don't kill each other. Don't like there's there's that stuff. But as far as the speci uh specifics go, I can't do that. But your heart is always to to make disciples and teach kids who Jesus is and have them connect with Jesus. You're not I mean in this scenario, like kids are going to learn where you stand on these things. Like you're good at that. Yep. This is not a scenario where you're talking about like, oh, I just don't want to I want to create make sure it's peaceful.
SPEAKER_03So No, I would say the the language that goes around is like affirming. Um I'm not affirming, but I probably would land in accommodating. So if there's like a spectrum of like give me your birth certificate to I'll call you whatever you want, I'm like probably somewhere in the middle. Maybe in terms of how you're gonna engage with sort. Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_05But your but your end goal in mind is always No, there's a there's a process there.
SPEAKER_03There's a process, right? Uh you know, that's why I say case by case, person by person, week by week.
SPEAKER_05Well, yeah, because in some situations you have I mean, it's it's it's some people again, the nuances of this are so important. And it is important to to it's important to do a few things. It's important to always have values that are we don't shift our values based on definitely maybe hurting someone's feelings. Right. I think that's what's really hard for a lot of parents, right? Because you might be a parent who has really specific biblical values about something, but then one of your kids has different views or or and you're like, well, I love my kid. Yeah. I don't, what do I do? I've seen parents who have just thrown out their entire set of values and beliefs because honestly, from my perspective, they're afraid of they don't want to hurt that child or cause a rift in the relationship. So they literally uh shift their entire value set around, well, that I don't do that. Right. Um on the flip side, if you're someone who's like, I have standards and I'm and that we're not gonna talk about it, you're just gonna follow my rules.
SPEAKER_03Uh we talked about dating with the parents, and it was like, what do you do when your teenager starts dating someone that has different values than than your family does? It's like that's not even like you have a kid that's struggling with a certain sin issue. It's like, oh well, crap, I could either say forever never date this person, which kind of stirs up in you this like desire to do some rebellious thing, or or we can just work on it.
SPEAKER_05And so what's it? What I just want to express, I know you're not wit, like it's not wishy-washy to do what you're saying. This is not you saying, well, depending on how awkward the conversation might be, uh, whatever. What you're recognizing is there there is a spectrum of situations. There's kids whose parents are diehard believers with really strong biblical ideas, whose kids are are going through something, and that's a different situation than a kid who's in the same place and their parents Yeah, come from a broken family, or just are a friend of a kid and are just showing up. Or the those parents fully support that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_05And so now you have and you're a youth pastor. You're trying like these are minors, yeah. And there's and so, you know, um, it it does create issues and uh and it creates uh for you a very challenging situation where you have to stay stay true to what you teach, yeah, but also love people and and engage people with enough honor and respect that you kind of earn the right to speak into their lives. But I know you well enough to know that you're this isn't a situation for you ever where it's like, well, I just don't want to stir the pot, so we'll just we'll accommodate it forever.
SPEAKER_03And there are certain things, you know, these conversations have been like sex and dating, pornography, LGBT. There are certain things just as a youth group that have become a little bit more um challenging to do. So like on Sunday morning, we don't have a gendered split at all at any point in the morning. Um, because Sunday mornings are our main gathering, it's like what we would call youth group. This is where we have the most people, this is where we have new people a lot, this is kind of our main main thing. Um and so the gendered split we found could create some um, it just wasn't as helpful as it was, as it is when we do our small groups. And so Wednesday nights. When we do our small groups on Wednesday nights, we do gendered split. Um, and so if kid is coming to a Sunday morning and they're like being forced to come to church and they're in one of these, you know, identifying positions, and they're and they have a rebellious streak in them, and they're like, this is an opportunity for me to even like it doesn't cause any division or confusion at all because they're just part of the group, and we're addressing topics that apply to both girls and boys, regardless of who you're attracted to.
SPEAKER_05But on Wednesday evenings in small groups, you do separate.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we separate just because you know you're sharing more personal things and guys just want to impress girls. And I guess girls want to impress guys, it's teenagers. Yeah. Um, and so but even in this sex conversation, pornography, etc., like the things, the struggles do apply more equally than they used to to both boys and no, it what's so interesting to me is that so I was when I was a youth pastor, um, which wasn't that long ago, right?
SPEAKER_05You know what I mean, but also it was, I guess I'd be. Ten years ago. No, I mean 12? Closer to 12 to the last time that I was. But when I first started here, at least, I mean, I had been working with youth in Kansas City for a couple of years, but not full-time. This was the first time I was full-time, and that was 2007, okay. And I had one girl in the youth group at that time who claimed to be a lesbian. Okay, and that was one one kid. I had a lot of kids that were fringe in other areas, you know what I mean? We had like skater kids, smoker kids, smoker kids. It was like a lot of different types of kids, but that was the only one in that in that place. Now, eventually there were a couple other kids. Yeah. Um, but you know, what's funny is that she now is married to a man and has a child. Like that's that was a phase that she grew out of, or whatever you want to say. And that didn't even happen here. They didn't stay at the church for very long time.
SPEAKER_03It wasn't that you convinced them and then that's what changed. No, I just happened to see them.
SPEAKER_05Uh I saw her, I think, on a Facebook or something. Like I was opposed to like, oh my, I recognize that. Oh my gosh, that's so-and-so, and married with a child. And okay, so that I want to know that story, I don't know it. Um, but to fast forward to today, and it's a whole different world. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I've I've had plenty of what I would call authentically gay boys. I've never had and I've had um I've had the range when it comes to girls of like, is this a phase or is this a deep struggle? And then I've only ever had trans girls in the youth.
SPEAKER_05When you say authentically gay, what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_03I mean I thought authentically gay is like it's genuinely so like it's not a just a cry for attention.
SPEAKER_05So this is not a performative thing. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03This for them, they truly believe that this is they have, you know, uh whatever um desire toward the same sex. And so I've had, you know, authentically gay girls and authentically gay guys, but I've only ever had trans girls that are trying to become male. I've never had a a boy who's pretending to be a girl.
SPEAKER_05Gotcha. So you've you've had to sort of like you've used this illustration before. Uh you're kind of on the front lines.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I doubt listening to this, I mean, I could see where someone would be like, oh my gosh, is this the youth group is made up entirely of No, no, like you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm trying I'm generalizing so that I'm not um shaming anyone in particular. But the vast major I mean, the vast majority of our students are normal, are not having this particular struggle. Correct. The vast majority of our students have plenty of compensation deals. But in this area, exactly. Right. We're not we're not okay. So for our area, we are a gay-friendly church, which is a hard thing to unpack because gay friendly can mean something. But people don't feel the shame of their identity defining them because we're looking through Christ's eyes and saying, Oh, hey, we don't see this as your definition. And some people are chill with that, some people can't handle that. Yep. Um, but we're not like sitting here preaching a message about how it's okay to be gay.
SPEAKER_05Correct.
SPEAKER_03So we're welcoming, loving, but not right affirming of But for the South, just being welcoming can be a lot.
SPEAKER_05Well, it's funny. I even for me, um, I get asked a lot of times why aren't your statements of beliefs on your website? You even sometimes challenge, like, hey, we should have and and I we we do have statements. We're building a new website, it's not the biggest priority for me right now. We've had a lot of growth, and apparently our website's not a hindrance to what's going on. So we'll we'll get there. But I want to be careful with the way it's worded on the website because the website is an outward-facing thing that's actually designed to say, hey, you know, if you're interested, come check it out. And when you like plaster this is our doctrine on all these things on the website, well, while there's clarity, and if anyone here ever asked, hey, like I'd like this clear, we'll give you that. We have that in our bylaws and all that. But on a website, it's like don't often reads like, don't come here unless you agree with these things. Yeah. You uh this is a church for people who think like this.
SPEAKER_03You have a pet peeve about signs like on the basketball court or you know, signs in general that say like, you know, don't park here or you know throw your trash away or whatever it is. It's like the first outward-facing thing when you approach our building or you approach our community, shouldn't just be here's the list of do's and don'ts.
SPEAKER_05Don't do this. Now, obviously, like I taught on this topic a few years ago for three weeks, and um, I just did a class on I called it, we call it the biblical sexual ethic. That's kind of the language. I think I got that from something else. I don't think I I just like that phrase. And it's like, yeah, like we're gonna teach what scripture says. And if someone asks me, hey, I I like I'm gay, what like can I be here? I'm like, absolutely. It depends on what you want. Yeah. Do you want to be loved and accepted? Um yeah, I mean, Jesus loved and accepted people who are prostitutes and you can't, whatever. Do you want to be agreed with and endorsed? That's not gonna happen here. Right. Because I I can only agree with, I don't even agree with things about myself, right? Right, but I can only agree with what the Lord affirms through scripture, and then I can only endorse what God endorses. So you're not gonna be uh agreed with and endorsed, but you will be loved. And what your point is is for a lot of churches, that's just too messy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That was the even the challenge of the thing.
SPEAKER_05And it is, by the way, is I'm not trying to cut you off. It is messy for me as a pastor because that means that there are people who I've, you know, they've they've been here for a year, yeah, and then they want to sign up to lead something. Right. And we have to have a conversation. Like, well, hey, I can't put you in this role. Right. Why? Well, because I this is a role that you I need to endorse you for. Basically say, hey, follow this person's lead, and there's this part of your life, and no one's perfect.
SPEAKER_03We all have stuff, but that's not the only lifestyle that disqualifies people from leadership.
SPEAKER_05No, and it's different. Lifestyle is an interesting word. Like, it's one thing to have something that you struggle with and be like, man, I fall in this area. I struggle in this area. I need to like do better in this area. And I'm not making excuses for people's sin or my own, but like that's one thing. It's another thing to say, I have just decided that this is I'm not even I'm no longer even fighting against this or trying. I have I'm fully embracing this, right? Even though it's counter to scripture, and that's I've just decided that that's that's that's me. Right. Well, that's a different Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And if even if the world says it's okay, we might say, like, hey, that's not right the the place.
SPEAKER_05I think the So it so my point is just being what you mentioned is being welcoming.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Well, it creates a lot more conflict for me because I've had to have conversations with people and they're like, well, I thought this was a place where I thought I was loved. I thought you loved, and I'm like, no, you are. We definitely love you. I just don't agree with you, and I can't endorse you for this role because of and then they're like, well, that means this has all been a farce and I'm not really loved. I'm like, it's not. It would be simpler for us just to be like, we're a straight church. Yeah. And we are, in that we're clearly going to teach.
SPEAKER_03But it's like the conservative Christian thing. It's like we're not a straight church as our like identifier.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Like I actually had a guy that wore a shirt one time on the welcome team and it had like all these statements like it's like straight this. Whiskey guns and and it wasn't that. But it was more, it was actually more value statements. Yeah. And I looked at him and I said, Hey, what's interesting is I actually agree with, like, I personally agree with everything on your shirt, but I just don't want you to wear it on the welcome team. Right. He's like, why? I was like, well, because if someone walks up here and they don't view those, that's not what they view. Um, I'm not worried about offending them. I'm gonna be clear. It's not about offending people. Right. I'm not worried about, oh, it's it's like that's not the moment that I want to do.
SPEAKER_03Why would you put something in the way of someone and it takes a lot to go to church. It takes a lot to like to go to church for the first time, or if you've been burned by a church, or if you're like a friend invited me to church, like it takes a lot to be like, I don't know, I gotta go park, gotta go find a seat. I'm gonna have to talk to people, they're gonna try to be nice to me. It takes a lot to do that, and if the first thing you see is essentially boiling down to it's theological statements repurposed as political bumper tags, bumper stickers or whatever. It's like those are those slogans aren't welcoming, even if they might be considered right, even if they are doctrine-based or whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_05Well, it's just again, like I said, uh, when we teach, we're gonna teach what we believe is biblically accurate teaching. Yeah. And that doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what the topic is. It could be homosexuality, it could be abortion. I I talked about that several months ago, and I was like, hey, I'm a Jesus follower, and that means that I believe that the hope for all of mankind at one point in time was an unborn child in the womb of an unwed teenage you know, mother. That doesn't reconcile. So it creates a tension. Uh, I think the difference for you versus me is I'm dealing with adults. Yeah. I'm dealing with people who, at the very least, there's an understanding in the room I teach in that all of us are adults, we make choices, we own our choices. We meet on the same level. We are right. And we might be confused, we can understand that we've been influenced by culture and we an adult can be just as confused as anyone else, but a child, as you're dealing with, is by their very nature like figuring out who they're going to be.
SPEAKER_03And with such a prominent identifying uh characteristic floating around in the culture, you know, like back in the day it was like uh cutting and emo music and heavy, you know, alternative lifestyle in that way. Um and it culture changes. Yeah. And like you're saying, it used to not be this many people struggling with this, but now it seems to be a whole lot.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, cultural teenage uh rebellion. I do think a lot of it is rebellion in nature, right? Like fighting against the norm. It's taken on many forms of like smoking. Used to be like when I was in middle school, cool teenagers smoked cigarettes, right? I haven't seen a teenage kid smoke a cigarette. Maybe I'm just not in the right places.
SPEAKER_03No, no, they don't.
SPEAKER_05But I'm gonna say they don't.
SPEAKER_03You have to be 21 to buy a cigarette.
SPEAKER_05Skateboarding, skateboarding was like I used to go to uh a quick trip or like a gas station on Town Lake Parkway. There's three kids, and there would be a bunch of kids with skateboards smoking cigarettes like openly in big groups. Right. And you don't see that ever anymore. Like the only kids who ride skateboards are like at the skate park in the defined skating area. So like it just changes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think that's the conversation with parents. There's two things that I want to say. So, conversation with parents is like you're not gonna be able to protect your kids from exposure to these ideas. So, like, you need to equip them to understand what it is and understand how to think about it, especially if you're raising them to follow Jesus. And even if they've made a profession of faith and you'd be like, this is a Christian child, uh, really equip them then to have you know encounters with people that are gay, encounters with people that are trans, and have a loving heart, but a genuine love uh for God and the at the same time. Um but I think the the hard balance with talking about this as the youth pastor is like we're anchoring it in that identity conversation and having the freedom to um articulate that well and be like, yeah, we've all got stuff we've got to surrender, but not dismiss the fact that this is still wrong. You know what I mean? Like to hold those in the same hand of like being true, true to this, like, hey, this is it's tough to say, but it's it's it's wrong. At the same time, we've all got stuff that we need to surrender. So if you're not struggling with this, this message applies in this way. But if you are, here's what to do.
SPEAKER_05It's one of my favorite things about something that's I've I've it's like a new way of thinking about it for me when Jesus talked about uh removing the plank from your eye, yeah, kind of thing. Like remove the plank from your eye before you take the speck out of the other person's. I mean, we always try as Christians not to judge people, but we judge people.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Like we we do. Like as human beings. I mean, we love. I mean, how many TV shows have been popular and the whole crux of the show is like someone performs and then everyone judges them and determines if they're good or not.
SPEAKER_03If it's not an official judge, the premise of what makes the show fun is that you judge them. Like just like Love Island shows or you know, like Love is Blind, or like I can't believe that Bachelorette chose that guy.
SPEAKER_05Her judgment is so yeah, yeah, okay. We judge. And it's almost like Jesus is saying, hey, you're going to judge. And when you do, when you find yourself going like that person is wrong, yeah, it's a great reminder. Like train your brain to go when you do that, and what the they might be wrong, like what they're doing is wrong.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05But also, what do I need to deal with as well? Um, and so homosexuality and anything related to it, I mean, this stuff is all adjacent to that, is uh it's really easy for and it's really easy for it to become the thing that is a Jesus follower, you're like, well, that group of people, if you don't struggle with that at all. Right. I was talking to a guy one time just to be like, pull the curtain back, and he's like, I'm like, are you opposed to homosexuality? Which which I obviously am. You know what I mean? Like that's not that is not, it's wrong. It is not what God wants us to do with our bodies at all. And he's like, Well, absolutely. And I'm like, I knew this guy had a porn addiction, he'd shared. I was like, Well, have you ever watched porn with two girls? Right. And he's like, Yeah. And I was like, Well, you're apparently not as against it as you think you are. Yeah. And the point I was trying to make with him was like, don't like you are, you have sort of minimized your own sin while maximizing someone else's. And in reality, dude, you're not. So I say all that to say when it comes to a church, how do we stay true to what scripture teaches? And not, and look, there have been churches who have, I think, felt the weight of the way culture is moving and very much been just like, well, we gotta go with the culture or we'll be irrelevant. Like, I don't worry about that at all.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_05I'm not at all going, guys. If we don't get on the right side of this topic, we're gonna be viewed as, you know, you've been on staff for all these years. We never we never sit and wonder about are we gonna be left behind by that's not the thing. So there are churches that have done that, and there are whole denominations, honestly, who have said, hey, like we can't be on the yeah, you know, and I think that's that's about teaching with clarity and communicating your own faith with clarity.
SPEAKER_03That's where I left it with the students is like, hey, as a Christian, implicit in the conversation, whenever you get to it, or if you don't get to it, is gonna be like, yeah, but to be a Christian, I have to surrender being gay. I have to let go of being gay. Isn't isn't that like isn't that the deal? For all the teenagers, I just encourage them to share what they have had to surrender to follow Jesus. And if you haven't had to surrender anything to follow Jesus, my encouragement or challenge was like, maybe you need to go deeper with Jesus. It's like we all have stuff that left to our own devices, we would do in our own way. This is the original sin. We're born with sin, and sin feels good. Um but I kissed a girl and I liked it.
SPEAKER_05No, literally that song came out when I was a youth pastor, Katy Perry, and statistically there was a rise in female, uh, same-sex relationships as a result of that song. Because that the the core premise of it is true. It feels it felt good. And so if you feel good doesn't make it right, right?
SPEAKER_03If you haven't surrendered anything in your own personal life to follow Jesus, that's the the log and plank thing. It's like you don't really have a lot of room to go being preaching repentance of sins if you haven't repented of your sins. Like if you don't experience the love of Jesus as a consequence of the repentance of your sins. And so that's where I encourage the students is just to really embrace the fact that we all have had something to surrender, even our good things. You call it good flesh, where it's like uh there's stuff in our flesh that we can be really good at and accomplish really well, but we need to um kind of own and just go like, yeah, that doesn't define me, that's not who I am. God can take that at any minute. Um so share with what share with them what you've surrendered as a way into that conversation.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely. I'll wrap it up with this. I love our church. I've been part of this church for 20 years, and it's been a very interesting church to be part of because we are a church that is very focused on loving people, period, welcoming anyone. And we've had a a history as a church that's had a lot of people walk through the doors that are not quote unquote church people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, on the flip side, we have tons of people in our church that are quote unquote church people. We're not we're also not a church that's like we don't want you if you're you better be you struggling in this specific way. We're we're a church for people. Yeah. And just like Jesus had like notorious sinners that were part of his his group, he also had lifelong dedicated like followers of his of the Jewish faith. They were all they were all together. And it gets kind of messy. And for you, specifically as youth pastor, it gets really messy when you have kids involved. And so when it comes to any issues related to LGBT, we are a church that teaches what scripture teaches. We believe that God's plan is for us to be in in healthy human sexual relationships or to be single, and healthy human relationships would be monogamous heterosexual relationships under the covenant of marriage. Um but we live in a culture that has completely different values, and very often people come in with those things so ingrained, or in the case of you with youth, you know, these new ideas that are so exciting and so attractive because it create it makes you it can check the rebellion box, it can also check the be accepted by other people box that dealing with these issues on a person-to-person basis becomes pretty tough. And you have to walk a as a youth pastor, you've had to walk a tough line to do it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So there you go. But we make it happen. We do, and you do a great job. Thanks. I think it'll be a good conversation with the parents too. I'm excited about it. Yeah. All right. Bye bye. Bye.