SPEAKER_01 0:12

All right, everybody. So we are gonna continue some of the uh conversations that we've been talking about for our high school series. But first, drum roll, I guess. To announce Thomas. Everybody, people know Thomas. I'm on a podcast now. Time step closer to becoming a celebrity pastor. There you go. Thomas did not want to be a part of this conversation. But the reason I have you here and thought that it'd be really positive is because you know, last week we talked about um pornography and managing devices and that whole world. Fun stuff. Yeah, super fun. Uh it's gone really well. You've been part of the um well, tell people what you do here at his hands.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Yeah, so um we have a lot of students here at his hands and you can't be everywhere at once. And so um I really enjoy and my main role is to just like kind of be where you can't. Yeah. And kind of, I mean, whether it's managing a crowd, whether it's pastoring, um, leading the team, just uh we need to divide and conquer because we have so many kids. And so um I love just kind of doing whatever we both do whatever we need to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

So and so there's lots of moments where I'll be on the stage teaching, but there's also like a group of supervised students, but they need direction and leadership as well. And if someone does something crazy, who do we ask? Yeah, and you're that point person. And then Wednesday nights looks a little bit different. You're kind of leading all of the students in conversations and making sure the team knows their stuff. And so yeah, I describe you to people as my right-hand man, and I think it's an accurate description. Yeah, um, so you've been having these conversations with students, leading the team, that sort of thing. So pornography. This Sunday we had a conversation about dating and boundaries when it comes to dating. I think the middle schoolers were the giggliest that I've ever seen them. Yeah. Just because uh for middle schoolers, a lot of them aren't dating, but they're kind of entering into that world by the end of eighth grade. Like the odds that they are like interested or you know, have had a girlfriend or a boyfriend, that's pretty high.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah. Annie said, Annie's uh my wife, she was on the the middle school team while you were giving the message, and she said the middle school boy in front of her, as soon as you like mentioned that we were gonna talk about sex, like put his hood over his head and like laid on the chairs. And she said she followed up with him after and he like received what you said, like he was listening. But uh, I think that was the feeling in the room whether they actually put the hood over their head.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

They were too uncomfortable to listen. But you know, the way I think of it is like if they decide on the front end, and this is what we said, it's like before you enter the dating world, if you have these convictions and your convictions are informed by scripture rather than your friends or your phone or culture, um, it's just gonna go so much easier for you. Yeah. Um, and so I wanted you to be part of this conversation, not because Justin's, you know, not good at having this conversation, but because every time you and I talk about this and about dating, I feel like I'm kind of walking away from the conversation, still chewing on, like, oh, like, yeah, I haven't thought about it that way. Yeah. Or I do like to like arbitrarily make a rule when there's not actually a rule there, or whatever it might look like. And so um for parents of teenagers, you know, we're gonna, I'm gonna sit in the room with parents tomorrow. What is like some of the most important things that you think that they they should know as their students start to date? And I know it might be different for every context, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Um, that's a loaded question, I guess. Probably the biggest thing is to just be as involved as your your kids will let you be. And I think that starts with, you know, a level of trust, not just in the dating and sex conversation, but just in every aspect of their life. Um are you someone that can, you know, your your teenager is figuring stuff out and just like we all do, and they make mistakes, um, they mess up. And like, how are we responding when they come to us with those things? Right. Um, because if we're really there's sometimes we need to be intense about it if it's like a danger to them. Uh, but if we show them grace and understand that we were teenagers once and we had to figure it out, we've made mistakes. Um, and like let them know that. Like we're we we didn't magically become adults and have a family and have everything figured out. Like we did had our own stuff. Once they learn that, I think it opens up the door for a lot more communication.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah, just authentic conversation, regardless of if it's about dating. Yeah. Had a parent ask on Wednesday, you know, what happens and what should I do if I've already had the blow up, like if I've already had the like freak out about whatever it might be. And uh Justin just shared to you know, apologize. Yeah, humble yourself, yeah. Um, and it's not that your kid is always gonna see, you know, the most humble and you know, uh contrite, you know, whatever it might be, yeah, version of you. But to just say, like, yeah, the way I handled that has gone a little bit wrong. Yeah, and so I guess how old do you think someone should be before they're allowed to start dating?

SPEAKER_00 5:26

That I think it depends on the person. Let's go sixth grader. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Should a sixth grader have boyfriends and girlfriends?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Well, I think you spoke uh you were really clear on the message Sunday about like dating is a process of evaluation. You're trying to figure out if you're ready to get married yourself. You're trying to see if this person is someone worth marrying. Um, and they might be worth marrying for somebody, but maybe it's not for you. Um I think that if you're not able to drive as a sixth grader, like driving is far down the road. If you're not able to go on dates, provide for them. Right. Um, I know people who are middle school sweethearts and they're still married and they have a really healthy family and marriage. Um, so I think there's exceptions to that. Right. But I think as a general rule of wisdom, probably wiser to build really close friendships and learn how to be a good friend and be a trustworthy person and uh learn how to grow in the Lord and and uh uh prioritize your faith probably first, is wise.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

That's the big thing I've noticed with teenagers that start dating. And this is part of the, you know, part of this conversation is me figuring out what I'm gonna talk about with the parents tomorrow. Is like, you know, it opens you up to a world of temptation dating does, especially if you can be alone. Like I would say, like in general, if you have a basement, don't let your teenage daughter or son hang out with their girlfriend or boyfriend in the basement or in the bedroom or in really private spaces, even if they're in your home, and even if you're sending siblings every now and then to go check on them, whatever it might look like. Yeah. Um, that's just a world that's like it opens you up to temptation. And so the the way we talked about it with the middle schoolers was like, so if let's say you do decide that, like, yeah, this is like something I want to have a family one day. I'm a seventh grader right now, but I I want that to be a thing. I want to be married, I feel like I'm ready for it, and I do feel like I found my person. Yeah, it's like the amount of time that you're gonna have to endure temptation before you're actually ready to get actually married is just gonna be a much longer time. Um, and instead, to work on that relationship as a friendship and to have a foundation of friendship that leads into dating, I think would be a much better place to be. Yeah. But the thing I've noticed, and this is like one of the major things outside of like sexual temptation, uh, you know, relationship drama, like all of that stuff comes with dating. The big thing that I feel like parents and maybe teenagers and who who's at fault, I don't know, is just unaddressed, is like the teenagers get so exclusive with their dating partner, yeah, that everything else starts to fall to the wayside.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yeah. There's a there's I think an assumption in our culture that like having a boyfriend and girlfriend um gives you certain privileges over them um that don't actually exist. And so what do you mean? So if someone has a boyfriend or girlfriend, um, they have the privilege of talking to them in a way that only they can talk to them, right? Or sharing their bodies with them this uh exclusively in a way that nobody else can. Um and scripture does not, there's nowhere in scripture that says we are afforded privileges or even responsibility over the people we date until marriage. Right. So um to as like a parent, when we're having you know, our kids, boyfriend or girlfriend over to give them a space. Honestly, we've talked about it a lot. The scripture that Paul talks about, like to be careful and not let your brother or sister stumble. Like we uh as parents, we need to be wise and like not create an environment or allow our uh allow our kids to create an environment where they could be tempted in the moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

And it's uh I think that's a really good, a good point about like treating this like an exclusive exclusivity thing about privileges. Yeah. What the way we talked on Sunday was like, don't play married. And I think as parents, there's a lot of like excitement and even joy that can come from our kids dating, you know, someone that we like, and we're like, whoa, this is awesome. And maybe we even want to encourage the relationship in healthy ways. Yeah, but they aren't married yet. And so inviting them to every family function and to including them on every family vacation, including them, you know, at a high level as if they are a new addition to your family, actually kind of creates like a really unhealthy um pressure in the minds of the kids that are involved in those relationships because it doesn't feel like uh the breakup can be as easy as it should be. And that's something that you've said, like breaking up should be really easy. Yeah. It's hard to do, but like what do you mean by like the easiness of breaking up?

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, I think uh specifically when it comes to like sexual sexual purity, um, when we are too physical with our boyfriend and girlfriend, not only are we crossing a line physically, we're also crossing a line emotionally and spiritually because all that's tied together. Yeah, um, and so there's bonds and you know, chemicals that happen uh when we're too physical with each other. And that creates an emotional bond that is not designed to be casually broken up, right? Right. Um and so Yeah, and that's why marriage can bear the weight of that bond.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah. And of that, you know, closeness.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

And that's why divorce is so hard. Yeah, it's painful. Um, and so we have to be careful when we're dealing with boundaries and sexual sin. It's not just affecting our physical bodies, it's affecting so much more. And we have to be aware of that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah, and I think as parents, just putting the biggest like role is to help your kid put their relationship into context. Yeah. And I think that is like the big switch of like, hey, you're figuring this out, you're gonna learn a lot. And when you recognize that this is not the person that you are gonna be with forever, act on that. And uh to put it in the context of like that's a win, because what you did was clarify why, and it and it informs you for your future relationships and um having it be in that context of like helping them figure it out best they can. Is this person who you're gonna marry? Are you ready for marriage? Yeah. It's like, oh, what that relationship revealed is you're not mature, and here's some areas to work on. Um, to be as involved in that, like contextualizing the relationship as possible without trying to insert yourself into their relationship and be like, let's process every single minute detail. Yeah, that sort of thing, too. Yeah. It's hard because I think teenagers, you know, I've shared this with parents before, like they are growing up and they are becoming adults. And so it feels like when things are going really well, it it the temptation is for your teenager to become very friendly with you. Like it's like we're friends, we share everything. Um, that's just that's just how this relationship works. And when things are going really poor, for it to be like uh I have to be the the rule follower, the rule maker, the you know, my how my way or the highway, that sort of thing. And I think the um the growing up process is about finding that line of like this person who used to be your buddy, we have little kids. Yeah, they're not our buddies, but there's a lot of time where they're our buddies. Um, but they're growing into an adult, and you have to kind of ease up on all of the restrictions that you've had because you're trying to equip them to be an adult. Yeah. But you also can't simultaneously just be their friend. They need that structure, they need the information there. Um, and so it's a really delicate balance.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

Yeah. I tell Peter, my four-year-old, I tell him that he is my like my like my best friend. Like we get along so well, but at the same time, he's also my son. Yeah. And I'm his dad. Yeah. And uh he understands when the when the switch flips. Um, not that I'm like, you know, authoritarian, yeah, yeah, like horrible to him, but uh he knows when there's discipline.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

I've seen Sirius Thomas come out.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah, and he he understands that. Yeah. Um, but also there are moments when he can just be my best friend and we play Mario Kart together, yeah, or we roughhouse. Um that's important too.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Yeah. And but with a teenager, that uh the positive version of that relationship is really hard to navigate because you're still trying to be like, and don't ruin your life with major decisions right now as a 16-year-old. And so um I was encouraged by the conversation on Sunday. I think the conversation with parents will be interesting. What I I think what I'm worried about is like because of all of our personal pasts, what I do, what my friends do, what I've seen everyone do is like you're trying to compensate for the mistakes that you've made. Yeah. And you either are, you know, you're guarding really well against the mistakes that you made when you were a teenager, but you're not actually equipping for the mistakes that they might make. And so you're kind of blind to that. But also just like everyone's convictions are different. And I don't know, what do you think it's right to have a rule that there's no dating while you're a teenager? Like, is no dating if a parent's like, well, we just don't do dating, yeah. What would you say? Uh what would you say to me about that? Yeah. I know you'd have a direct conversation, you know, if you had trust and yeah, but I'm gonna be sitting with parents, like, and they're like, we just don't do dating. Do you think I should let my kid date?

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Yeah, well, uh something like that might be really difficult and might cause a lot of conflict, but at the same time, you are still their parents. Like I'm I'm uh I uh subscribe to the like my house, my rules. Yeah, even if you're you know, growing up and becoming an adult, like if you're paying for their rent and their car insurance and all that, like you have a say in what they do. Uh yeah, that might cause some conflict, but I think that's that's not wrong, I would say. Yeah. I think I would probably just ask them why. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Like is the reason because you're trying to I don't even know, you know, I understand maybe like a middle schooler, like, no, you're not allowed to watch you're not allowed to date. Yeah. But for a high schooler, I think it's a different uh different kind of category. I would I would encourage ways for them to pursue that in a healthy way.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah. I think that's what it is. I think for a lot of teenage relationships and how some parents handle them, that rule makes sense. In other ways, I think if you lead your teenager well and like show them a clear picture of what a godly dating process, evaluation phase, whatever you want to say, um looks like, and they're able to have a close friend that they are romantically involved with. Um and you know, they come over to your house and have dinner with you, and you don't think of it as like, oh, this is a boy out to get my daughter. Yeah. But it's an opportunity to pour into a young man and to uh be interested in what his interests are and what he wants to do as a career and his relationship with the Lord. Like that's an opportunity to disciple someone that your daughter cares about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Uh and it's also your last chance to really inform your own kid, yeah, to see like how they handle a dating relationship and to see where their strengths are and where their weaknesses are and where their boundaries are. Yeah. To to say, like, if that's happening while they're in your house, you have a lot of influence into saying, you know, here's a better way to equip you to handle it better. Yeah. You know, in this case or that case. I think the if you if you do have the the hard rule of no dating at all, well, you don't you just don't get to see that side of your kid. And that might be something that you're like, yeah, for our family, I don't ever need to you know be part of it. Maybe it's family history or can specific context. But I think most parents want to be able to inform, you know, the process in a in a healthy way. Yeah. And I think allowing the high school years to be the place where you equip your student to have those conversations and be in those kinds of relationships, I think it it could go well. Not that any ninth grader needs to be married right now, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

And and the parents playing that role is like uh an outward uh view of like a dynamic between uh two teenagers. I think continues to be more important as we get less social and more on our smartphones. And me and you can blame everything. We we we can find a way to blame everything on smartphones. Sure. Uh but a big part of dating relationships not too long ago was that you were a couple and you went to movies with your friends and you had a friend group and they evaluated you. And oh yeah. You have like the rose-colored glasses on because you think they're cute and you can't see their flaws as well as others.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

The community of like friends allowed there to be input, the community of and accountability, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah. And like we're hanging out with friend groups less, and there's less opportunities for us to be evaluated by trusted peers because we're we want to be in person with the person we think is cute. Right. But then if most of our friendship interaction is through phones or gaming or whatever, whatever, we're not really having those trusted people to evaluate us outside of I had a buddy who was in a really bad relationship, and it was, it was like we were able to speak into that.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yeah. And he for you know a season was in that bad relationship. Um, but it was interesting to see how quickly he isolated himself from us and the longing to be like, well, I want to hang out with my friends, but I know they don't like this relationship because it is unhealthy. Yeah. It like, you know, caused some wrestling there. And I'm not sure that that's like the full reason why they ended up not together, but it does add to that weight. And you're saying that parents are kind of like the last bastion of that in terms of like a consistent role.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

That's probably getting more uh parents' involvement is probably uh more important than it used to be, maybe. I don't know, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Yeah, just because there is not as much like friend to friend interaction.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

That's interesting, or even like their youth pastor or their church leaders, yeah, right. Um to have people that they trust that can be like, I think this relationship's going great. What do you think about it? Yeah, like to uh to have those relationships with teenagers and for them to trust somebody uh that they look up to. I think that's important. Like it needs to be someone that they see their marriage or their relationship and they're like, I want to be like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Those kind of people need to be pouring into that's where I would say as a parent, it's not just about providing an open space to when you mess up, come talk to me. Like that's an important thing. Um, a lot of teenagers, you know, I had that relationship with my parents, but I didn't actually take them up on that offer. You know, it was something that was said, but it wasn't necessarily something that I took advantage of. Yeah. And so to help in your teenager's life, for them to have people like that that they would go to when they mess up or they would go to for advice, or they would go to just to speak into their relationship, I think that's really important. And my mom, I don't know if they were doing that, like my parents were doing that intentionally, but just by driving me to church every Wednesday, yeah, that was like baked into the reality of like, you've got Justin, talk to Justin. You know, like and what and that's how it ended up being the case. And so um, even getting them involved in those things, whether it's coaches or uh church or whatever it might be, just so that they have like, hey, I'm in this, what do you think about it? Or even for me, like I will offer advice that has not been asked for with the teenagers because sometimes they they need it. Like, hey, have you considered how much time you spend with your girlfriend versus your friends now? Like you kind of never see your friends. Is that okay? And they're like, We wrestle through it. Um, makes them think at the very least. Yeah, definitely. And that's where I was really grateful for our conversation with the teenagers. Again, parents will look different. And hopefully, this will serve as like a in case you missed it, you get to kind of hear some of the perspectives that we shared. But a lot of the teenagers were coming up and just chatting about the message, saying, like, yeah, I needed to think about that. I needed to hear about hear those filters, uh, because I hadn't thought about it that way. And being at church and being involved with people who are also trying to do it healthy in a healthy way. I'll tell you, like, my friends not being wild, like went a long way toward me not being wild. Yeah. Like those moments where we all kind of were like, let's just be crazy. It was like not a good situation. And so surrounding your students with people that generally you trust, everyone's got sin and stuff going on. Yeah. Uh kind of creates the the best possible outcome for that.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Yeah. Dating is interesting because uh statistically, like most people want to get married. It's like 90 something percent of people, like young people, teenagers in their 20s would say they want to get married, but uh at the same time, a not a lot of us aren't ready for it. Yeah. Uh, and it's really complicated on top of that. Yeah. And so it's a it's a fun thing to disciple teenagers through. Yeah. Uh because there's a lot to it. And sometimes it gets awkward because it's, you know, sex is baked into it. Yeah. And uh a lot of sin and stuff. And just to be gracious and like be a light to them, show them the way that Jesus points us toward.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

And that was the the big thing that you know we're big on at his hands, and I think Jesus is big on, is just like that forgiveness and grace. And um, this isn't a shame-based conversation. This is like totally like there is freedom and forgiveness, but there's also a call to holiness, and like in that you can actually be empowered to take control of the temptations that you have or sin that you have. Yeah. And so where we landed was, you know, first Corinthians talks about us being the temple of the Holy Spirit, that there's not like a corporate temple anymore that we have to drive to to go worship God. Yeah. And we kind of just landed of like, if that person is a temple of God and God lives there, and same with you. It's kind of like when you walk into a place that you know requires some respect. Like if you walk into like an art museum, you're not gonna just be doing whatever you want.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Like, yeah, burp.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

You walk in there, you're not gonna do a big burp. It's like you're respectful, you're you're intentional. Um, and so we kind of landed there of like, this isn't about uh, you know, here's all these rules that you need to follow. This is about approaching a person that has the Holy Spirit, is like made in the image of God, is beautiful in many ways. It's like approaching them with the same respect that you would, if not more, than when you do walk into a museum. Yeah. And to say to yourself, like, hey, I'm open to dating, um, but I'm gonna set some boundaries and rules and expectations when it comes for me, because I know that the Lord lives here and I want to treat him with respect too.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yeah, we we talked last week. Uh we had mentioned that like all the accountability stuff, all the like monitoring our phones, um, all of those are essentially just tips and tricks. And really the only true solution is to have a deep connection with the Lord and to uh continually pray uh for us to see his creation and his people um the way he sees them. Like that's truly the only solution. Uh and so if anything, with the dating series this month, um, at the very least, I pray that and I hope that we're teaching these kids to like continue to rely on the Lord and how he sees their friends and how he sees the people that they think are cute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Um and that's where it's like for parents, all of this is summed up with like discipling your kids. Yeah. Where it's like, hey, investing in your kids' relationship with the Lord is gonna pay dividends in every area, but especially dating, because it's become such a big part of your life as a source of everything. Yeah. So thanks, Thomas.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Welcome to the podcasto sphere.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Sweet.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

I don't know what what we call it, but appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah.