You, Madison, are the youth pastor here at his hands. Yes. And you are doing a multi-week series with our team on sex, dating, gender, gender, pornography, all sort of things that are in the under the umbrella of sexual sexual related things. Yep. And sex and sex adjacent things that teenagers deal with. Yeah. So we had a, we let the, as a church, we let this was your idea by the way, brilliant idea. I'm not just saying that it really was. You we let the whole church know, hey, this is what's going to be happening. And we invited the parents a couple weeks ago to stick around after our main service and have a chance to hear from you, hey, here's what the topics are going to be that we're going to cover. I want you guys as parents to be in the loop on this. I don't want you to be blindsided by it. They had an opportunity to talk with you and get clarification. And then we, in addition to that conversation, we committed to have a few weeks of Wednesday night parent conversations. Conversations. And how are those people? So this conversation we're about to have is us working out the details. And we thought, yeah, might as well record it and maybe it'll make a good podcast. Maybe not. First time we've ever done a podcast where it's actually like we need to have a meeting. Yeah. So let's just record the meeting. Yep. And maybe it'll be if we if this has been released, we determine that it was a worthwhile conversation. Exactly. And worst case scenario, Zach's having to watch us have a meeting. So we have a parent meeting coming up tomorrow night. Yeah. And we set the topic, but we also didn't have a conversation about what that is going to look like. No, we kind of trusted that we'd be fine. Future Us would deal with this problem. Yeah. So we haven't had a chance to. So it's good to see you. And so I have an expectation of what it's going to be like. Um, but the topic is helping your teen resist temptation, pressure, and pornography was the temptation, pressure, and porn. Yeah. Okay. Was the topic. Okay. And my idea of it was like we talked over the phone. I don't necessarily want it to be like we sit down and have a teaching, like we have to write an another message for the I agree. It definitely needs to be more of a conversation. Even the way I do so the way I do newcomer gatherings has really changed. I used to give a big spiel and then ask for questions and it'd be kind of awkward silence. And now I was like, well, I also let people ask questions first. Oh, nice. And then I'll finish with whatever didn't get covered. Because usually the questions kind of cover the spiel anyway. So I uh I ask questions and then I answer those questions. And usually in the answers to those questions, I covered everything I used to cover. And then at the end I'm like, what has not been covered? And I share it. And so that just helps and it makes it a lot more of an interactive experience than just people watching me talk. Yes. Especially if they're like they are coming into the conversation with the question. I feel like a lot of times people just hold on to that question and that's all they're thinking about the whole time. They're kind of like, mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. It's my turn. Did you go to seminary? Yeah. That was the first question I got this Sunday, which is fine. Nice. No. So do you think that that is a right place to start for this kind of meeting? I think a little bit of setup for this meeting, just to re to frame like, here's what the expectations are, so that you don't have um you know, like there might be a parent who feels like they're kind of at a crisis point with it. And I would and it's for everybody. So I think if you just open it right away. So I think a little bit of a little bit of a setup. Okay. So temptation, pressure, and pornography. I put those together. Temptation for what? I don't know. Temptation, sexual temptation. Sexual temptation, pressure to uh my real answer is uh to produce, spread, or uh participate in pornography. Aaron Ross Powell So you're specifically this meeting is not so much about the actual activity of sex. Sex. No. Yep. Okay, that's important to know. We're not talking about the temptation to have sex with your girlfriend or with your boyfriend. Correct. You're talking specifically about the this is about the sort of digital online component. I'll give you like a backdrop on this. I might actually share this in the meeting. This might be actually a good intro. Okay. When I was a youth pastor, uh which you remember, you were my youth pastor. Was I a good one? Yeah. You think so? Mm-hmm. Even though even with hindsight? Yeah, even with hindsight, much better youth pastor than you are, Pastor. Well, hindsight hasn't finished with that with that. That's true. So we don't know hindsight on that yet. So uh there was That's not true, though. No, I'm teasing. I can tell. There's a student, you're yeah, you're a way better youth pastor than I was. And I think I'm actually a much better pastor than I was a youth pastor. So you're a much better pastor than I am a youth pastor? I don't know. The jury's out on that one. We don't know. So the uh the there was a student I had older than you, and he was one of the guys I was the closest with uh that was when I got to my role here when I started, I think he was already maybe a junior in high school or a sophomore maybe. So, you know, a few years in we gotten close, and he was dating a girl, and I knew the girl, she was part of our youth group too, and they broke up. And and I can tell he was pretty shaken up by it. So we went and we just uh had we had lunch or dinner over at Taco Mac. We're just talking. And I'll never forget the conversation because I wasn't prepared for it. And he said, We broke up and it's gonna be okay. He said, but don't worry, I've deleted all the pictures I have of her on my phone. And I was like, whoa, back up. Like, what? You know? He's like, well, yeah. And he kind of explained to me, and this by the way that was that was new at the time. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm talking at this point, gosh, this had to be 15 years ago. I know it had to be because it was before my son was born. Right. So we're talking 15, 16 years ago now. He's like, I've deleted the the the explicit pictures I have. Right. And I was like, Whoa, we gotta back way up. What are you talking about? And he kind of explained it to me, and you know, I learned in that conversation that apparently from his perspective, at least, that that's like an expectation in relationships that didn't used to be. Yeah, now it's not will you kiss me, right? It's will you send me explicit pictures of yourself? And and I mean it kind of broke my brain because I realized, oh my goodness, like that is obviously just the obviously in and of itself not not okay. You know what I mean? But the potential damage of that after the fact, like, oh, he says he's going to, is he going to? And what happens if I mean it just my brain was like, this is a whole world I was not prepared for. Yeah, it's also and this like I this is where I can lean into the pastor fearmonger sort of thing. So just check me on it. It's like it's also a lot scarier when you get the charge for distribution of child pornography. Correct. You know, like that's illegal. And as a person, yeah. Yeah, yeah, correct. So like at the time, she I mean, he was a minor. Yeah. She was a minor. Right. If he would have sent that on to somebody else. If you would have had that, that's possession of child pornography. So if you have that, I don't know how it works when you're all underage. Right. I'm sure there's some grace. Well, I but I but I have her, okay, with that in mind, I have heard stories. Um, I think I read an article about this somewhere where there was a guy, similar situation, kept that, right, aged out of being a minor, yep, still had that. In his mind, he didn't see it like that because it was a girl he like she is also aged out in like it's a you know what I'm saying? Like I'm not j I'm not justifying any of this, but then he somehow accessed it or or he got caught and he got charged with possession of that. And and his a his argument was like, well, hold on. I've had it since I was a kid. Right. And it's someone I know and was in a relationship. A kid year a year ago. You know, it's not even that it was or a couple of years ago. I don't know, but the end, but it was like, no, that is possession of that. And it was and he and he was arrested for it. It was crazy. And so when I say temptation to produce pornography, what I I don't mean is there is like this other lane we briefly talked about like uh the pornographic influencer culture that leaks down to teenagers, where it's like uh the pressure to produce that for money. For money. Anyway when you say produce pornography, like literally you I'm glad you said that because in our culture today, a teenager in high school could have a relationship and could have a you know their their boyfriend or whatever pressuring them to send me a thing. Or not even pressure, just they want to. Yeah, it could be either way. Pressure I've either overt or just that the exp the societal expectation of the even the the peer, like let everyone's doing it. The culture.

The culture.

And you wouldn't necessarily think in your mind as a kid, like I am producing pornography. Right. No. No. But that is technically 100% what that is. So that's okay. That's just and the reason I structured even these conversations, because we did this online. So we're about to have we're about to have a conversation tomorrow about that. Yeah, potentially is because the online stuff happens before most people encounter sex. Like I do re recognize that there's a right sort of thinking that orients your way toward this, but I kind of wanted to meet them on their level and go like, hey, this is the first thing you're encountering. Here's how we approach it and and deal with it. You're it it this is a a pressure that kids feel and face. It's a very What percentage, if you had to guess, what percentage of modern high school students have at the very least received um images, video, whatever, of someone that's a peer of theirs in a compromise. Because when I grew up, pornography was something that I mean, I was exposed to pornography in third grade, and then middle school computers and stuff became a problem, and I've shared about that. But pornography was very much like something that people out there that are part of like an industry produce and create, and then it is consumed by there was no concept of like the person you you knew or person you go to school with. You helped me even understand that when I was trying to help, I was actually working with a guy, and you kind of opened my eyes to things have changed a little bit, that pornography now is not just something that you you watch, it's something that as often you participate in because it's much more in today's culture. Yeah, you you can map any any popular technology onto pornography, and it was probably there first, is my impression. No, well, the pornography industry is known for that. Like they're kind of like on the front end of a Patreon, which is how you know creators uh make money. YouTube tips for you making a video, and uh people pay three dollars a month and support you to be on mass. It's a it's a big amount of money. Um the online porn version of that is OnlyFans, which is I think no, which I believe that wasn't even started for that. If I know the story of the story. I believe the story of OnlyFans is that it wasn't it was started as almost like a Patreon competitor, and it just became very popular with they probably had a lower um community guidelines that allowed for and it just kind of became to where to where now like technically you could have an OnlyFans that no, no, it supports my paint paintings, uh, but if OnlyFans is a synonymous- You're the fans of my paintings, right? But it's now but I think that it began not as that. The point is it's become Or the thing like uh Twitch, Twitch streaming for gaming, like that's where I say like there's you know participation. It's like you can comment on things and people can interact with that. And so it's very few bucks or it's very much a technology world that the teens are very comfortable with and already trained on. And so when a new platform starts to take advantage of, or maybe their new curiosity and they discover a platform that takes advantage of those technologies, it's very easy to fall into that. You can go from being someone now, if I you're a teenager, and this again isn't fear-mongering, it's just knowing the world we live in, right? You can go from being like when I was a kid, okay, I got ex- I got exposed to pornography in third grade, I saw a Playboy magazine. And then I was at a friend's house in like fifth, sixth grade, and he had a computer and he like shirts something up, and I had a computer at home, but I never thought about that. Yep. Well, now what you're saying is the the you can go very quickly from seeing something like that for the first time to actually participating in a digital version of it to some degree, and it can be yeah, and everyone's path everyone's path is different. And so um you asked like what percentage of people have received uh so like when I grew up, one girl had nudes go go around in high school from church, one girl, and I didn't see those. That was like we heard that at school that was happening. From and you went to church here. Yeah. I was not aware of that. Yeah. That's something I was completely unaware of. Exactly. So bad youth pastor, I guess. I don't need I don't think you need to know when someone's nudes are going around. No, no, I don't. But my point is that's something it never even crossed my mind. Like when I would think about writing messages and preparing, and like what are the kids dealing with? Yep. Not even in the four point. You never thought a girl or a guy exchanged naked pictures and then broke up and now they're doing revenge porn on each other and sending it to everybody, or even just like casually, here's here's this person's naked body. And that like it that's heartbreaking. Yeah. Like truly. And so that happened once at school and once at with someone I knew at church. And that was pretty much it. I think nowadays, the stories, whether it's every single person, I don't think it's every single person, has to do probably with your online, like how tapped in online are you, and how accessible, what kind of group chats are you in? Um, because I think that's probably the main perpetrator, is one of those nudes gets dropped in one very influential group chat, and then that can spread like wild. And then it can become a thousand people in like two years. Exactly, exactly. And so whether or not it's like, oh, um a percentage, but in terms of if I ask the students, hey, like how many of you know someone either at your school or in your community, you know, sports teams or whatever, that that has happened to, I think everyone would probably raise their hand. So it's a very common thing. Yeah, it's extremely common. It's not just like that happened to that one person that one time. Yeah, that's a very very common thing. And I think the There could be like support groups at high schools for people who have had themselves like that's happened too, and there wouldn't be like two people. Yeah. If everyone came who experienced it, you're saying it wouldn't be. Yeah, no, and this is this is getting to the the heart behind having these conversations and even with parents, is you know, some of these kids aren't dealing with this. And we just talked about like the balance of like exposing someone to something that they don't need to be curious about and knowing they'll be curious. I think where I've kind of landed on that is like I can't pretend like something's not happening. It's it's a topic that is extremely prevalent, but very little talked about. Like, yeah, as I, you know, in middle school when I'm giving messages and if I'm trying to reference something like this, you know, uh scripture will say the term sexual immorality, and it's really easy to justify your own actions and go like, well, that only means sleeping with someone. Well, yeah, when I was growing up in in 90s youth group culture, not having sex was talked about pretty often. Right. But clearly there's all this other stuff that's you know, maybe uh sex acts that aren't penetrative sex. There you go. Yeah, no, how to get really good about no actually saying the thing. And so thus it was never talked about. Right. And it was always we all knew that that stuff's not right okay, but but because it was never talked about, there wasn't really any equipping. Yeah, the only thing I ever felt equipped with was like don't have sex until you're married. Yep. But there was no equipping for how to handle so many of the other temptations that are gonna come along, and and that was hard. And so the way I see it and for parents and for students is like as a youth pastor, I've and as just a someone who's grown up online, like and now has the convictions that I do have. It's like I've grown up and I've seen the battlefield, and I'm like a scout going back to the back to the troops, and I'm saying, like, I saw the battlefield, and I either have the opportunity to share the information to help you be equipped to say, like, yeah, they're fighting with swords, or yeah, they're fighting with sniper rifles. Like, that's gonna equip you very differently. And so, to give parents and families and teenagers the tools that they need to step into the battlefield, that's inevitable. And so, to equip the students and parents on how to do that, even just having that conversation, because like you're saying, you're a parent of a teenager, you grew up in a very different culture, even having struggled with this stuff. Correct. You grew up in a very different culture in terms of what what was accessible, the nature of it, the I can I can think of how to have the conversation like son, don't yeah, but then I don't I'm not even aware of all the right. I'm I'm so outdated. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, like oh, and my parents were too. I mean, just reverse that. I mean, my parents, when I was in seventh grade, I had a basement bedroom by myself. It was the only bedroom in the basement of the house, everyone else was upstairs, and they gave me uh cable TV with all the movie channels. Nice, and they never thought for a second like oh, this is gonna produce something in the all kinds of things. Yeah. Because that in their growing up, they didn't see TV as something as dangerous, right? It was like, so yeah, they didn't know that. And I'm as a parent, I don't want to be the same way. I don't want to be like, well, I had no idea. Yeah, yeah, you know, like and there's wisdom, you know, there's nuance to some of these things in some of the technology conversations, right? But I think to just uh give a clear um expression of my perspective to them, I think will be good. So we're gonna talk specifically about technology. Yep, and for you, it's an opportunity to say, hey parents, I I know what is happening. Yeah, I'm not saying your kid is doing it. I'm not the purpose of this is not to make you afraid, yeah, but uh the way that this uh happens, the way that kids get exposed to this, um brought into this, it has it has evolved in the last since we were kids, definitely since they were kids. And if we're not as parents aware of of that, it can it can like yeah, and that's that's where I might want to just open the floor to questions. That's where I'm saying prefacing it even with that story you were sharing of like you know, especially or essentially like teenagers, their perspective is can be really off. Um but I think it would be helpful to in the room, you're saying someone be in a crisis. Is it kind of helpful to like know that? Like to share that with each other, you know what I mean? Like what I mean, if you don't do any setup, right, you you don't necessarily want the the feeling of when you start a meeting, right, okay, early in a meeting, the culture can be set, the the tone, the feel of the meeting can be set right now. That's why I don't want to I don't want to set it up as fearful and then be like, so what are your questions? And then it's like I don't want it to be like the disaster version of it. You want to be the one who has that, uh, who sets that tone. That's all I'm saying. Is a question like uh like one time I had a newcomer gathering, and the first question that was asked was, What are your what are you and this was legitimate, they weren't being funny, they're like, What do you think about aliens? Yeah, and it was like that just set a very different tone. Someone was blowing up my phone today about that. About aliens? Yeah, just a whole Christian aliens, giants, the whole thing. Yeah. And so that's a right, that's another rabbit hole. Giant Christian aliens? Giant Christian aliens. Okay, cool. So setting it up with that story, setting it up with a kind of like, hey, I mean, is is that scout metaphor helpful? I think it's great. It's just been a lot of people. No, I think it's great. For you to say, guys, I'm just as because of what I do, yeah. And you know, even the fact that I think you were growing up in a you are like part of the first generation to grow up with all this stuff, just puts you in a different perspective too. I I just want you guys to know I have seen what that looks like, and I want to be here as a resource. We want to help each other. Yeah, and it's it's funny because I think my cohort of parents, like the people who are my age and we have young kids now, it's like I feel like we're all gonna approach that very we'll all be different because we're our families are different, but we'll all probably have the same like do you think that your generation, now that you're all are having kids, are your kids you think less likely to have phones and stuff than than yours? Yeah, correctly because you guys were like, Oh, I've seen like no. Yep. Do you talk about that with your friends? Do you guys have conversations? Yeah, but it's a touchy subject. Because my kids still have phones, still touchy because parenting's touchy, so like parenting differently than your friends can still be like oh, parenting's touchy. Like, if you do things different than your parents did, your parents will often uh assume that they did a bad job as parents. Like, I know that you are just I know you think that I was a bad mom because I let you watch shows and you don't let your kids watch. I've actually literally never had that thought once. Yeah, I just was like I was like, I love movies, yeah. Whatever it is. Like, I just have I'm trying to do things a little different. Yep, it's not a judgment on your parenting. Yeah, it's no, I mean, my so I'm a I'm a very big outlier. Liam is 15, my oldest. He does not have a phone. He does have an Apple Watch. So he has a phone number, he can call and stuff. And I do know that that Apple Watch could be used, sure, but it's not designed for that the same way that a phone is. Right. So his uh I guess he'd have to work a lot harder. But to some degree. I mean, does he have a laptop? Uh not one that is his own private laptop. Yeah, no, no, no. No, and the only um he has an iPad, but it's it's on tie, it's a secondary iPad tied to my account, so the same restrictions that are on my iPad are on that iPad. Nice. And I'm sure like anything else, there's nothing that's 100% foolproof. Right. But my point, my point is not that I was specifically talking about a phone. He is he is extremely odd that he doesn't have that. And honestly, you know, the biggest struggle that I'm having with like that phone conversation is uh he turned 16 in less than a year, a little less right at a year. He just turned 15. And he was talking about music.

Yeah.

And I was thinking, like, yeah, when I got my car, one of the big parts of having a car as a kid was choosing your music, which for me was like a CD player. Yep. And I was like, oh, how is he gonna listen to music in his car? And that's where that's these are the things where push push comes to shove. Yeah, I know. You know, it's like so it's easy for me to be like, I guess you get a phone now. Yes, right, right. But also navigation. But I was like, I can buy, I can pay for Toyota's navigation. You can also buy CDs. He'd really have a CD player, so I have to get a CD player installed in the car, which I could, yeah, which I could do that. And then Start going and getting CDs of your favorite bands, which you have probably a special order online now. My wife and I do DVDs. We have streaming, but we have to like extra plug things in. Like we don't have our connected TV actually. But how much of how much are new things put out on DVD? They are. They are a little bit like certain new things. Yeah. So like if a Netflix movie comes out, there is no way to watch it except on Netflix. Correct. So my son listens to his main source of music, and I know this, is um fairly emergent, low, lesser-known Christian rap. Christian Yeah, like rap. Yes. Yeah, I know I. Mumble rap. Yeah. But I don't think these guys sell CDs. Yeah. Well, you can burn CDs. My point, there's other ways around it. So you should. He'll probably be like the most keyed in music person to be like, yeah, listen to albums. I only listen to albums. They're like, oh, that's kind of cool. I'm on like playlists or whatever. Like I don't know. I don't know. So my point is I feel that pressure is a parent. Yeah. Be like, well, I don't want to, I don't want to deny him a rite of passage, so to speak. Yeah, and there's technology too, like dumb phones, I think is what they're called. They're not actually dumb because they have maps, music, podcasts, texting, calling. So it's like it just doesn't have internet, internet access. So products like that exists. And I had also thought about buying him. I I know I can also get him an iPhone and essentially do that to it in all the settings. I can say turn Safari off, no app downloads, no this. And here Which is another thing we need to like, yeah. I think we need to be part of this conversation is like the protection or like the walls that you can build definitely uh for your kids. And um I think too, like influence is uh like online influence can be hyper negative, you know, depending on the rabbit hole you fall in. But then something with me before in a conversation that helped me a ton because I was identifying with with you, like, hey, I met with this mom, she's got a daughter who's dealing with this and this. And I was and I was like, what is it about the fascination with this one particular thing? Sure. In as it, why is that such a common link in all these kids that are dealing with this? And you went, oh, that's just a sign that you're on the internet all the time. Yeah, definitely. And I was like, Oh, yeah, that that is the if your child lives on the internet, yep, the internet is kind of designed to pull you into different like rabbit holes. Yeah, just or to maximize your engagement. So if you're in if you're most curious or most interested in, we were talking about like the pressure washing videos or like lawn mowing videos or whatever, it's like that can be really consuming, but it probably is not gonna have some big impact on your perspective on the world. But if as a growing child, becoming a teenager and then being a teenager, if your curiosity leans toward anything from you know, hypersexual things, um deviant, when I would say deviant, like abnormal sexual things, or even if it's just politics, hobbies, whatever. But the internet is a it's a channel maker. It is, and the more time you spend on it as a young person, yeah, and the more the internet becomes your world. Yep. That's where your waking hours are spent. Yeah, the more likely you are to be exposed to all kinds of uh, like you said, things that are yeah, and I was an English major, so in my college career, there were some like wacky classes that you could like be find yourself trapped in. And it's like, oh, we're in like a very wacky class. Didn't realize that that was gonna be happening. But I was also an adult, and so I was able to put those into context so I could avoid them. You say wacky class, you mean like the people that are in the class with you? The teacher has a very specific and almost seemingly random bent to talk about whatever personal pet project. Yeah, I was in college. Yeah, rather than covering the content of the course description. I my classic example of that, and I think I've told you the story, and I actually offended my professor, Lois Ann Harris was her name. Yeah, shout out to Dr. Harris. But she uh it was a class on cultural communication, and we were really studying the the differences in communication styles amongst different cultures, mainly west and east was kind of the um so Japan and whatever. And uh she spent the summer in Iceland, and I think I would say 70% of what she talked about for the entire semester were examples of Iceland. Yeah. I'm not even right every class. It was like so in Iceland, and but none of our course material was on Iceland, because that's actually a very specific culture that you probably don't need to be an expert on to succeed in the world, right? And I asked the question 100% honestly, it I did ask it. Is Iceland gonna be on the test? Is that what you said? I did, but I did ask it in kind of a in a mean way, yeah. Which she caught. Yeah, and so I was like, she's like, okay, so you know, finals are coming up, and I just was like, Yeah, so how much about Iceland is gonna be on the final? And she was really like visibly offended, and she said that was really rude. And I and then I tried to play it in a oh no, uh you just talk about it a lot. I mean, I was like 20 years old. I was like, well, no, you've talked about it a lot, and I just didn't know if that was material that we needed to remember. And so I'm just like digging a hole. She already didn't like me, by the way. She didn't like me because I was a really devout Christian, and she really just she honestly Well, that's also another weird pet project thing of like a political religious. She it was like her, she con Iceland and dogging on Christianity. Yeah, and so imagine being a child in that college class, right, and you trust adults and you trust the culture of the community, and you just immediately believe everything your professor says. That's the thing that happens online. So like that can really happen where it's happening invisible to your parents. Like your parents see you sitting in a room like this, right? And they assume, oh, they're just watching a funny video or whatever, and they're reading no idea that like you're being literally sucked into a and even when it's not uh I think the thing that it's like sounds so weird that this is a tame thing that's on the internet, but like the true crime world, like the amount of young people that are like highly, highly into the true crime world is like kind of weird because it's a very, very dark it's super dark, you know. It's well, I guess there's curiosity about death and all that. But point being is like you can just go down any rabbit hole and because you're young, you're almost creating a worldview that looks like that forum, like whatever, whatever it is. And so I think just being careful, not not only about the did I see the content was inappropriate when I looked at their phone or when I checked their history or however we go about monitoring that, it's not just that, it's about the places and spaces that they go online because that culture is going to inform the way they think and what they do. And there's there's real world examples of that as a kid. It's like if you choose to do, you know, a certain hobby or if you're highly involved in the arts versus sports, it's like that's gonna, those are gonna be very different cultures that have healthy aspects and unhealthy aspects, depending on where you're leaning. I mean, it's I think we have to at least own the fact that we're all really easily influenced. Yeah. Even like as a sports guy, there's a couple YouTube uh YouTubers that are big sports analysts, you know, and they have really produce really interesting content if you're a sports fan. It's very easy to just let your current opinion be based on what the most recent video you saw was. So a guy posts a video about how this guy should be the MVP based on these advanced, and you're like, Yeah, yeah. And then you find yourself arguing with someone like a day later, oh, I should absolutely be so and so because have you seen the and you're like, I didn't, I just heard this. Yep. And I think what we're talking about with the internet is basically with our kids. If there was a if we were with our kids and there was like a physical store that we walked past, and the store was called like weird sex stuff. And our kid was like, Can I go in there? We'd be like, No, no, please. No, even maybe go to the point of that there's a street, and we know that on that street is a shop called Weird Sex Stuff. You would be like, don't go down that street. The internet, yeah, you know, and and it's and it's so discreet now. I think what what's changed, I think I I think I've talked to you about this, but I think the main thing that I've seen that's changed, or one of the main things that's changed it's like the phone makes it private. So when I was a kid, if you wanted to look at something on the internet, the phone, and that's why I'm like extending that to laptop, iPad, because most people treat those devices very similarly. Like phone, iPads in your room, computers in your room, whatever it might be. Right, right, right. So yes, but even a phone, you could be in the corner of the phone. You could be in the room, yeah, that's true. And it's like, and I remember a few years ago I saw a music video and it got some attention because it was one of the top music videos at the uh it got some attention online for winning an award, okay. And it was a music video actually by a former Disney actress who was very popular, had a show that my kids, I think her name is Dove Cameron, and she was in the um oh my gosh, it's like the villain kids descendants, and my daughter likes the descendants stuff and whatever. And she used to be in another show that my kids had watched, okay? And then she's trying to, she's clearly trying to break away from the Disney girl. And what's the easiest way to do that? I'm a bad girl. Yeah, I think. But she had a music video as an independent artist, and it was the like darkest, most almost almost like a caricature of someone who was like, hey, I'm thinking maybe for the video, we go with like evil. Yeah, like really evil. She's like, okay, how evil? Like taking a bath and blood. I want you to pretend like Satan is the director of like, okay, let's go. But I but here's what hit me is when I was a kid, obviously music videos were a thing. And they were just as evil. Like a lot of them are really evil. Correct. Yeah. And they were I think music videos have always pushed boundaries. Yeah. It's always been a I mean, A, music pushes boundaries. So music videos have always been a little edgier. But when I was a kid, the understanding of the people who made the music videos and who were gonna produce it was that you're probably gonna watch this on your living room TV. Yep. And mom can walk in the room at any time. Yep. So there's sort of, and and my parents, but what are you watching taught? They was like, no, mom, it's not that bad. What do you think? So there was at least though that understanding of that. And now, as I watched that video, I didn't watch the whole thing, but as I was, you know, watching a recap of it basically, it hit. I was like, my first thought was how could like parents ever let their I was like, oh, wait a minute. Parents have they've never seen this video. Yeah, right. Like it's got billions of views, it's not parents, it's not on a TV. Yeah, this is a kid. I bet there's kids on their phones at the the dinner table watching it across them is their parent talking to them, and they're like, And their AirPods in, yeah, yeah, and they're watching this. And the parent imagines something far more innocent on the screen. So it's just it's changed everything in that way. Sorry. Yeah, there's just no, there's not a conversation. Well, and this is like, you know, it's bigger, it's a bigger topic than so we gotta get rid of these phones, man. These kids, we gotta all that's the meeting. You're gonna have all the parents go get your kids' phones. That was the hard part of the conversation on Sunday. Was we also talked about modesty, and I think someone asked a very genuine question, but I don't know. I and I I you know, I framed it, I expressed my doubt and what I was articulating, but it was like, so what do I do at the pool? Um, and it was a boy, because we were talking about uh modesty is an awareness of the sin in other people's hearts, and it's an accommodation for that. So it's like an expression of kindness, like yeah, um, like how I would put away alcohol if I know someone struggles with that if they're coming to my house, something like that. And so the kid was like, What about the pool? This kid does is a middle schooler, he's he's probably not gonna be like the buff guy at the pool that everyone's like, there's the buff guy at the pool. Oh, yeah. Um, and so I gave the example of like playing basketball with the bros. Like taking your shirt off and playing basketball with the bros, that's pretty normal. And it isn't it isn't wrong, you know, to do that. Now, if there's 20 girls on the on the bench playing basketball and it's hot and you want to take your shirt off, it's like, well, just wear a sleeveless shirt. At least be accommodating to the fact that that might, you know, cause some trouble. And so the question was like, what do I what do I do at the pool? And I don't know what what is your thought on that? Like, let's say the basketball with the bros analogy. Okay. Let's say there's girls at the pool. Okay. Should I swim shirtless? Let's say I've got a rockin' bot. I'm a I was I've never had the issue of like people are probably gonna look at me and I've always been a I've had a dead one. I think that's a self-deprecating self-deprecation because I think sin is opportunistic. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Um you're saying it's a very culturally normal thing for you, you're framing it as a guy. Yeah, it'd be easier to a girl be like, well, wear a more modest bathing suit, right? Like a one piece or a tankini instead of a right, but as a guy, the options are like I swim with my shirt on. And that's what I that's where I landed. I said, I think the thing is you just have to ask the question. And that's where we were landing is like uh asking why am I doing this, obviously your own heart motives, and then also being having an awareness of the situation. So it's like, are you willing to say, I'm actually cool swimming with a shirt on for the sake of someone that I love or someone that I don't want to, you know. And it's like I think asking that question usually puts it into context of like, yeah, probably, you know. And so I don't think I didn't say that's where I'm saying, I'm not saying swimming with a shirt on every time. Yeah, but I think the but I'm glad you had that conversation with you because modesty is usually almost always targeted at girls. Yeah. So that was that's good to do. Well, and and they can map that on, and that's where I was saying to them. I was like, standing up here and being like, guys, here's all this stuff that you've done wrong, girls that you need to figure out. I think that doesn't come, it's not received well from me. Um, but I will say from a guy's perspective, I've had multiple high school students who have been like, yeah, I'm trying to work on the lust thing. It is just really hard in our culture, even at places like that. You should be like, this is very normal. And so it's like as a loving thing and an expression of love toward uh other people, just to be modest and whatnot. So for this meeting, we definitely need to talk about technology, the way it's utilized. We need to sort of open the minds of parents to say because would you say the average parent's very aware of this or somewhat naive to it? I would say um naive or willfully ignorant. Okay. And willfully ignorant, we can talk off mics because I've just have a couple stories that are just like hearing a parent say that really concerned me. And I'm not like a disaster, a disastrous person. I do simplify things sometimes. So I would say, first of all, you want to speak to, you know, always speak to like something about you that's really interesting is I think you're a super smart and you're often right. Okay. But sometimes it's like because of that, that confidence in that is you can like I joked with you earlier off about being reductionists, is sometimes no, it's that's where and that's where even the the shirt I think was a good example of that. Like people are generally more nuanced than we we think. And so um I would say for this meeting, if your belief is that the average parent is either naive or willfully ignorant, also I think there will be a lot of parents there who who do spend time there definitely you know what I mean? So they take it seriously. So consider all that. But I think that some degree of of just the conversation, like you have a strong conviction that well, you're the youth pastor of our church. Okay. You have a how old is uh Simon, your oldest? He's five. Five. So That felt like a test. Oh, yeah. I know how old my son is. No, one time, dude, I had to go check all my kids into a gym. Yeah. One time in their kids' area. It's like, what's their birth years? And you're like, and I was I had all four of them with me. I was exhausted. Yeah, they're all climbing over me. I can't get what's this one's birthday? I'm like. My kid is two years old. I started doing math. Older than my youngest. That's what I do. I was like, But they were born one year after that. But the point is, you're the youth pastor of our church. Your son is about five years away, maybe even less, from feeling the social pressure of having a phone if he goes to public school. And right now it seems like your public school is Yeah, it depends. You haven't decided yet. But you're open to sending, you're not like, I'll never send my kid to a public school. You're not that's not your conviction. Yeah. So if your kid goes to public school, like mine, like Liam did for many years, he will eventually be like my son was, the only kid without. Will you be buying your son a smartphone? No. What are the percentage odds of five years from now, Simon? Five years from now? When he's 12, zero school. Zero percent. Let's say seventh grade. Yeah, zero percent. Unless so at current yeah, zero percent. Zero percent. But that is extremely I'm gonna guess that as the youth pastor, um your your your conviction of that's much stronger than the parent of the average youth pastor. Yeah, definitely, right? Because they're all like, well, you gotta give him a phone. Right. So is part of the conversation on tomorrow night gonna be like you guys might need to reconsider their their access, or do you view having a phone as I mean, once you got it? I mean, you kind of got it. Like, what's your um so Colin Karchner, who has now passed away, he has a TED. Why do I know that name? We were gonna have him speak at our church. That's the guy, yeah. Yes. So he has that conversation to him aneurysm, just in the middle of the night. Yeah, that's right. We were gonna have him. He had a whole talk about the damage done by phones to kids. I think it's a TED talk, but Colin Karchner lookup Colin Karchner phone TED talk, something like that. And he brings the example of a 17-year-old who um you've expressed the the day I got my so-and-so a phone. I that's the day I lost it. I had a dad, I had a dad meet with me, and he literally said, Yeah, I bought her a phone, she begged me for a long time. The day I bought it for her finally relented and she gave me the biggest hug, and I was like her hero. And she went to her room, shut the door, and he's like, That's the day I lost my daughter. Yep. And so he has that similar, you know, conversation in that TED talk, but he says, for parents who feel like it's too late, is the recommendation like I they gotta have their phone, or do I take it away from them? They're gonna hate me. And he just shares a story of a mom with a 17-year-old daughter, and they ended up doing that. And she said that it was like a very, very positive thing. I had a high school student, and this is something I'll probably share. A high school student, I said, Do your parents know how your phones make you feel? And they said no. And even that their reasons for keeping their phones, because I was like, Well, so why don't you get rid of them if they make you feel so bad? I was like, Well, my mom needs to know where I am. And I was like, Well, you're at church right now. I'm I imagine your mom knows where you are. Do you think that, but on that note, I want to keep you going. Do you think that a parent paranoia a needing to keep tabs on their kids at all time is part of what fuels the need for parents to feel like they need to have a phone case? I don't have a need for that. Yeah, I don't know what that's what I'm saying. I don't know what fuels that so like so like like Liam, for example, on Saturday, he's he had a big basketball tournament with his team, and he was gone all day with his team, and I had to come back here. And I learned after the fact that they all like walked across the street and we're all splitting up and going into different shops. And he went with one of his buddies into a shop because he said of this buddy, he's like, he's the kind of kid who would probably steal something to be funny. So I went to walk, I like wanted to keep tapping. To stop him from that and uh and so you know, but I I had no idea where I didn't I don't we don't do live through 60 or anything like that. I don't even know if you can't do it with a watch, maybe you can. But the point is, I'm I knew that I left him with a group of people and I'll see him six hours later. And yeah, and I don't know if that's paranoia or if it's just normalized because people do it, their spouses, people do it, their friends. Yeah, see, we don't do that at all. I don't know we uh we don't either. So Megan and I don't even have the whole thing turned on of like where are you? I think we have And not that we've avoided that, I just think we have the feature turned on. I've never seen it though. Like I've never seen where Ken is. Because Megan will call me, where are you at? Yeah, and I'll call her, Hey, where are you? Yep, instead of like, oh, I know where you're at. And so they they all uh pretty unanimously in a group of probably 15 students, they were saying that's the reason that they can't get rid of their phone, despite it's um, because they they were like, I don't like social media. I'm trying to be off that more. And like I was like, so why don't you just put your phone down for a week or whatever? And they're like, Well, my parents need to. And I asked this 16-year-old girl, I said, Do your parents know how you the phone makes you feel? She's like, Oh no. Literally every single emotion I feel from my phone associated with my phone is negative. And I was like, and I told the group, I was like, if your parents knew that, they probably would help you approach your phone in a different way. Right. That every you're saying, and I asked her, I pressed her on it. It was like every interaction, she's like, Yeah, it's either comparison, self-doubt, uh, anxiety, temptation, you know, it's like all of these things where it's like every single interaction you have with your phone is a negative thing. Because as a working person, if I don't have I don't even have email on my phone. Sorry if I haven't responded to your I do respond to emails. I do, but but I still don't. But I don't I don't need that notification to come when I'm trying to spend time with family because I know I'm 32,000 on emails. I still I have a lot too, but I'm saying like I I've never seen the point of having it on your phone because it allows me to work when I shouldn't be working, you know, if that makes sense. Oh yeah. No, we we we are slaves to this. Yeah, people people that need me can can reach me, you know, via phone call or whatever it might be. Um, but point being is like it's not even like the evil social media shadow, you know, demon that's running social media that I'm talking about. I'm talking about their friends. Like right, every single time you're sitting in a normal context doing normal thing, doing sports, doing your creative project, doing your homework, doing family time, whatever it is, there's constantly, even during this conversation, my phone has buzzed like 12 times. I haven't heard it. Well, it's been buzzing in my pocket, but it's like my uh as a teenager, it's all that and it's all your friends, the thing that's like the most important. So, like for me, it'll be like a mixture of family texting me something about later work. But this is like if I'm not in this conversation, I'm gonna be left out of the friend group. And that's the other thing they expressed of like, how do I not have that without being left out? Oh, I had even this morning, there's a group three. That you're in and people were posting on it. Yeah. And I didn't really have anything to contribute. But I feel like I should. Right. So I just like did a ha ha on one of the posts. Yeah. Cause I was like, well, I want to let people I don't want to be a jerk. Like, I'm not. Man, Justin hasn't. There's been like 15 texts and not me. So I just was like, ha ha. Because I started typing something, I have nothing. Yeah, this is right. I just, yeah. But and imagine now it's like I a video or a meme or you know, like all that stuff. And so I think that there's, you know, connected to the sex, you know, conversation, there's just a generalized pressure with phones. And so if you ask me, Am I gonna get my kid a phone? You know, parents can have varying perspectives on this. So I it's a conviction, right? But like even the kids drinking in your house, like I know parents who give their their own only their kids alcohol, and it's in a healthy context, and it's that's a rule, you know. The law allows for that. Like your teenager can drink uh under your supervision. Yeah, I did not know that was a law. Yeah, so like I thought you have to be 21. No, so a parent can uh you can drink. I'm I might be wrong. You can give your 14-year-old a glass of bourbon and it's fine. You can. So if I frame it in a religious context, you'll understand why it makes sense. Is communion, yeah. So there's there's context where it does make sense. Um, but I wouldn't, I I personally wouldn't do that. Right. Um I see it in a similar kind of way of like, would I give my kid cigarettes, would I give him a vape, is like this thing that's gonna negatively affect him in such in ways that he can't at this moment make a decision to um compensate for it. And it's addictive. I mean, it is it's not even it's like it's not even like a I wonder if it might be the most addictive thing. I think the Surgeon General's warning should be on the home screen of every phone and every time you turn it on. Yeah, and I think there'll be an era, and I think your generation again, you guys will be the ones that well, okay, for example, cigarettes. Yeah. My dad used to collect sports magazines from back in the day, like the 50s, 60s. And there's like doctor recommended cigarettes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like seven out of ten doctors agree that such and so lights are hard. They open up your lungs. Like it has stuff, it's like silly, you know. You're like, what? And then my my mom and dad uh grew up in the generation of smoking. Was my mom you know smoked from when she was a young, like teenager. That was normal. People smoked everywhere. There were smoking sections in every restaurant. When I wait, when I started working at Chili's, smoking or non-smoking, I remember. Yeah, I'll sit in the smoking section. That's such a gone thing. Yeah, but it actually took the generation of people who grew up doing it and then maybe suffered from it to come and be the ones that are like, this has got to stop. Right. So we've been vaping. Yeah. Which is you know, but point is, I think with phones you're gonna see similar things. So I'm I I'm only asking this. You're gonna be opening the eyes of parents tomorrow to all the ways that these devices and the technology creates pressures, um, things to not only see but to participate in. Will there be an aspect of you recommending, hey, I I think we should all as parents exert some yeah, that some strong I think that that that that's more of like the leave it in their hands up to their own wisdom and discernment. But are you gonna say but a lot of parents wouldn't even know how, like what do I do? Yeah, how do I we can walk through the locking it down? Um I think it's a bigger conversation just because it has to deal with um your social settings too. So for the normal kid, you've talked about like I don't feel like kids ride their bikes anymore. Or don't see them right back. Yeah, but your kids are hyper-involved. Your kids don't have time to ride bikes. You know what I mean? Like you're saying none of the kids in we live in a neighborhood. Right. On my side of the neighborhood. We live in a big neighborhood. There are at least six or seven bus stops on my drive from my house to the neighborhood entrance. And every because I get stuck behind the bus a lot just the time I go, and it's just child, child, child. In between bus stops, I do not see children ever riding bikes. Right. Anywhere. Right. You know, it's it's like a very yeah, I cannot remember the last time I saw a kid riding. Chicken and the egg, you know, it's potentially the phones or like uh this is the generation for sports specifically, or even extracurriculars in general, where it's like they're at practice, there everyone's so involved with everything, like church, you know, even church where it's like, where is everybody? It's like, oh, today was such and such games. Like, oh, okay, cool. Um and so there's my neighbor Bobby, he he rides his bike and he sets up little booths and stuff. Yeah, he's pretty cute. Yeah, he's like 11 or something. But um, yeah, so if you don't have any social connection outside of school and you don't have a phone, that might be harmful potentially to your so you can see situations. You're like, I see situations where they're human. Yeah, but maybe the situation then is like then get them involved in something extra, right? It's not necessarily like to give them a phone so they're not bored at home, you know. And I think that's or mainly it's so they're not mad at you. Yeah, like there's gonna come a point. One of my biggest regrets was when Liam was in fourth grade, my oldest, he didn't we didn't let him play Fortnite because we heard all the things about Fortnite, and he was just dad, please, everybody plays Fortnite, everybody plays Fortnite, everybody plays, and we relented and it was a mistake. We should not have and we took it away, but actually it was it was damaging. I mean, it was like uh for a variety of different ways because boys just trash talk, yeah. So they trash talk at school, and instead of him coming home and having reprieve from that and rest, and then the next day back to trash talk world, it's like he got home doing more trash talk, and by nine o'clock at night, he spent an entire day of just negative communication. Guys just beating it's it was awful, yeah. So um, okay, and so context does matter, but I think there's healthy ways to get your kids engaged with friends and so we're gonna set it up, open it up for questions that so parents will kind of guide a lot of the conversation. Yeah, and maybe that that's the kind of question that I would want to ask is like, what what are some of the things that you guys are seeing with your kids that you're kind of wrestling through? Because we've got a range. Um, some kids, and I think hearing other parents express that would be um what's the word? Not solidifying, validating, where it's like yeah, you're not alone in this, I'm not alone, encouraging you. Okay, that other student is struggling with that. And I wanted to keep it contained to this topic just because I think it's a big enough topic to to be helpful enough in that context. And so as we answer the questions, I'm sure we'll hit on all these topics we've talked about, but um to have like dating is the next one be its own thing. And so we can kind of on the front end, you probably want to tell parents like those questions. Those questions, yeah. Next week. So let's keep this one focused in this. LGBTQ is the last week to have those conversations. Why not? I well, we can put the plus. Okay. I I'm I'm I'm with the it's amazing how society has gone like you're gonna put all the letters and a plus, and then it's kind of gone back to like, yeah, okay, we're gonna make we're just gonna, you know, yep. And so uh we'll have those conversations with parents because I think both of those conversations are big enough to be their own thing. So sounds good. Yep, does you'll be there, I'll be there, I'll be there. Sounds good. Can't wait. All right, bud. All right, bye, bye.