His Hands Church
His Hands Church
Midweek Podcast - Suffering & Healing
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Alright, so last two Sundays we have done messages on suffering and death. One, two punch of just joy in a series about joy. We're going through Philippians. And I mentioned on Sunday that we would record a podcast about this kind of uh dichotomy. Is that okay? Okay. Of scripture that talks about suffering as a legitimate, it's like something you should expect. Like we all suffer, and God actually uses that suffering and He He produces in us, we grow through it, you know, like we mature in that. But then also all these promises of like healing and God intervening, because it's like it's easy to go to one of two extremes. You know, one extreme would be suffering is part of the world, we all suffer, and God, you know, just kind of lets us do that. I grew up in a church that we didn't pray for people to be healed. That wasn't something I have no memory of. I mean, I think we all believed he could and did, and there was it's obviously in the Bible, but we were more like God be with their doctor kind of a church. You know, it makes sense. But then I've experienced the others where there's this belief that, like, no, I mean God will heal you. And if you have enough faith, and you will be healed, you will experience that. And so suffering is something we come against. Like in the name of Jesus, we you know Which is interesting because I bet if you This is me just talking off the top of my head. Yeah, we haven't planned, by the way. No pre pre-discussion. This is this might hopefully this doesn't create a crisis of faith. But point is there's tension in this. I bet if you counted all the times that there was a promise for healing or an expectation of healing versus all of the times there was an expectation of suffering. Right. I think that the promises of suffering would probably outweigh like anticipate this. Yeah. Would be a there probably are a lot more verses like that, but that might also be because of the context of what's going on. I had a good uh I have a friend conversation with a really good friend after that suffering one. Um, and he was wrestling with it. And he's he's an he's a guy who I have a ton of respect for. He very much believes that God will heal you. Like that's a okay. And he made one, he made a really good point. He's like, hey, I think you know, suffering is a pretty broad category. Yeah. Sure. Right? Because there's there's suffering like Paul was suffering because of persecution.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_00And his point was like, yeah, God's never promised us that we would not be persecuted. Right. Then there's suffering that's brought on by your own just life choices. You're suffering because of decisions you've made or bad investments. Someone else so or someone else did something and you suffer as a result of that. But then there's like sickness and natural suffering. Yeah, like the yeah, like sickness. Like a tornado hits your house. Sure. There's that. And uh and I think he was specifically maybe more focused on sickness because you know, there's this idea in the Old Testament where sickness would be part of like the curse. Disease is something that is a result of that curse. And that's and then in the new covenant, you know, that we have from this person's perspective, like promises of that curse being broken. You know, and then and to his point, it's like, well, every time Jesus says someone that comes up to him who's sick, like have you guys watch The Chosen? Yes. Okay, but say this for those of you chosen fans, I like the chosen. The chosen is not the Bible. I'm a big fan of the chosen. I think it's great. I I'm happy with chosen. Uh and at the time this is being recorded, I'm not aware of any major controversy with the chosen. So five years from now there might be. I don't know. But my point is really through. But there's a scene that there's an interesting scene in the chosen, I think it's season three or whatever, where one of the disciples, they kind of added a um Little James has a limp. He has a limp. Or uh, something like that. He's got a he's got an issue. And he kind of asked Jesus, why haven't you healed me? Right. And Jesus gives him this story about this spiel about like, well, because actually you're you're basically gonna be more effective having this.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And it's really a lot of people were like, that really encouraged me because they they have that stuff. And it's cool, but Jesus never said that. Right. There's actually no situation where Jesus ever unless I'm wrong, I can't think of a time where Jesus told someone, actually, I'm gonna let you have this. The closest you get is to it's when he's healing someone when they're asking him, whose fault is this? Aaron Powell Yeah, the blind man. No, no, for the so that the glory of God can be displayed. Right.
SPEAKER_02And they're saying whose fault is it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Not not it wasn't his parents or his. This is all for the glory of God. For the glory of God. So it's like a weird remix interpretation of that in the context of his blindness.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00So the point the guy the point this guy makes is hey, when every time someone who's sick comes to Jesus for healing, they receive it. He never says, actually, this is part of God's will for your life.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm gonna let you keep that one. Right.
SPEAKER_00And uh, you know, the time when the Jesus comes down from the mountain and the disciples can't, they failed to heal this person, and he's like, they're like, why couldn't we heal him?
SPEAKER_02And he just goes, I was a little boy too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he just goes, 'cause you don't have enough faith. Like he just says it like that, which we've had conversations about that, where all that to say, um, there's a tension that's there. And I like tension, uh, or I'm okay with tension because I think that's how we grow. And I guess what I'm saying is the tension that I see at his hands, we're kind of a unique church in a lot of ways. One of those ways is we are not a hyper charismatic church in the sense that it's every Sunday is a uh and I'm not I'm I'm obviously speaking in broad strokes, I'm not trying to categorize, but some people have had experiences with kind of hyper charismatic where rather than me talk about what does that bring to y'all's minds when I say that.
SPEAKER_02Well, no, I'm just what brings to our minds.
SPEAKER_00When I say like hyper charismatic, what is that?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think there's you know a spectrum of different, you know, churches. And when you when you think of um churches that lean more towards the like charismatic demonstrative church, um and you have have people that have the theol theology where um you know speaking t in tongues is like something that happens all the time in corporate worship services, right. Um where it's more um, I would say more chaotic in a church service um corporately. Um so that's what I when you say. But there's but there's often a heavy emphasis on the there's a heavy emphasis on demonstrative, like corporately demonstrative things like And I would say even like signs and wonders.
SPEAKER_00There's a huge there there's been like Bethel Church in on the West Coast, there's been a whole movement of churches kind of involved out of that. There's a heavy emphasis on signs and wonders that when we get together, there's gonna be things are gonna happen, and those are supernatural things, and and those signs and wonders are actually the proof that God is is active. There's a a big emphasis. So there's healings are gonna be happening left and right, and that that there's a whole movement of that, right? Do you know what a modesty blanket is? I don't know to a charismatic church. Trevor Burrus, Jr. What's a modesty blanket? Oh, when someone falls and passes out, you put it over them. Yeah, because if you're a woman wearing a dress or whatever, it's like you put a blanket over top to make sure that you know whatever angle you fell, no one can see people are falling down, there's all that it's it's I'm saying like the demonstrative, like yeah. Yeah. And then on the flip side, there's churches that I guess this would be more like dispensationalist where you don't believe that the spirit throwing out all the terms today. I'm sorry, but this okay, so this would be more like I don't think that the Holy Spirit is active in that way anymore. That was more like just for that time of the the early church, and so those are churches where you're never gonna have someone pray for for healing and and all that. And at his hands, my point is we're kind of like there's tension. Like you lead the prayer team. You guys ever pray for healing?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00How often talk about it?
SPEAKER_02Every Sunday.
SPEAKER_00Okay, like in what context?
SPEAKER_02Um, so leading the prayer team on Sundays, we have like you said, we have a a very varied, a very varied um background as uh as people at our church. So um when you come in for prayer, we will pray for people to be healed, but it's not in a um chaotic or um No, the prayer room is very peaceful most of the time. Yeah, it's a very peaceful environment. So it's a very biblical way to pray for someone to be healed. You know, it says that we're supposed to you know anoint with oil and lay on of hands, and so our prayer team functions as the elders of the church in that regard. Um so if someone needs physical healing and they come in for that, um, we have oil in the prayer room and we always ask if that's something that they want. We never like we don't ever put oil on someone by surprise.
SPEAKER_00Is it magic oil? Yeah, so describe that what for someone that's listening to this being like, what are you you're referencing James where it says if any of them among you is sick, yes, they should go before the elders of the church who should anoint them with oil and lay hands on them and pray for their healing.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And it says that the prayer of a righteous person is effective.
SPEAKER_02Like Yeah, those are yeah.
SPEAKER_00Is that the same? Um Maybe I might I might be mushing those together. But either way, that's what the So what's the what's the oil about?
SPEAKER_02Um so it's just um like an unscented um pressed oil. Canola, I think it's olive oil. Um and it's just in a little we have a like in little vials so that it's not like a big like thing of oil. Um but it's just an unscented oil, it's not anything specifically. But what's the purpose of it?
SPEAKER_00Like what is that about?
SPEAKER_02Um I think that it doesn't say specifically in the Bible that like this oil is special in any way. Other than that, it's like a physical moment of um remembrance for us that we've prayed and asked God for this. It's kind of like, you know, is baptism special? Is water special? Is it like the water in the baptism tanks isn't like specially filtered anointed water?
SPEAKER_00It's just oh we ship all of our baptism water straight from the Jordan River. It's all that'd be awesome. That would be really cool. So unnecessary. It's just we spend a lot. Yeah, we get that baptism water.
SPEAKER_02It's just it's like a physical thing. I think God knows that as physical people, we need something that's like, oh, I did that. I prayed for that. It's the same reason that we're praying like with other people. We can pray for our own healing at home, but there's something about going to other people saying, Hey, I need prayer for this, and someone coming up to you and holding your hand and saying, We're praying together. Like we need that, like, and there's lots of Old Testament stuff about anointing with oil.
SPEAKER_00That was a tradition. My point, my point is we do that.
SPEAKER_02Like we see people get healed. We do see people get healed in the prayer room, and it happens in a lot of ways. And so when I say people get healed, it's like it's like saying people come to Jesus or saying people um it there's so many different ways that that can happen. So like your experience of coming to know Jesus was different than your experience of coming to Jesus, which is different than mine. So saying, Yeah, people get healed, it's so different. Even when you read in scripture about people being healed, it happened in so many different ways. Sometimes Jesus spit in the mud, sometimes Jesus touched them, sometimes they were healed just because he said so and they were healed from a distance. So when people come into the prayer room and we pray for them to be healed, there are times that I have, and I I mean I can't speak for everyone in the prayer room, our team is large, um, but there are times where I've prayed for people and I have felt like my hands get warm when I'm praying for them and we're praying for their healing. There are some times where I feel nothing and nothing happens.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And then they'll come back and say, like, yeah, I went home and like four days later something happened. Or I'll be praying with a person for someone else that's not even there, and then they'll say, Yeah, they went to their doctor, and their doctor did a scan, and they're like, Oh, our last scan must have been wrong. They don't need that surgery now. Yeah, we've had a lot, but I say we've had a lot of those like I have to go in for surgery.
SPEAKER_00We pray. We've had I say a lot, we've multiple times I know of people who've come back. Right. You know what I mean? We've retroactively ruined a lot of MRI machines. Yeah, well, and then and then it's like, yeah, you go, well, oh, maybe they're scan was the scan just wrong?
SPEAKER_02Or what's like, no, they got healed. Right. And then there've been times where we've prayed for someone to be healed, and we've prayed over and over and over again. And then what's happening is they're going through chemo, but they're not experiencing all the negative side effects of their chemo medication. Does that count? Yeah, that counts. Like they're still going through the things that they have to go through, but their doctors are going, yeah, this chemo medicine should be doing X, Y, and Z. You should be experiencing all, but you're not, and the chemo's working. So the thing about praying for people to be healed is I have I have talked with God a lot about this. There are times that I'll pray for people and they leave, and I don't know what happens. So it's not like it's um you just pray and like everybody gets healed the same way all the time, or everyone even gets healed. I don't know what happens. I can't really say.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02But I do know that I'm not really in the business of telling God what to do. So when someone comes in and says, I am going through cancer, I need healing. I don't go before the Lord and say, Okay, God, this person has cancer. Take away their cancer, it has to be removed from their body. This is how you're gonna do it, and this is what's going to happen in Jesus' name, amen.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Because God is God and I am not.
SPEAKER_00So And there are sometimes in the hyper charismatic side, there is that level of like confident prayer.
SPEAKER_02And I prophesy and I telling you, and we're done with this, and and and it's like, well, and and to be honest, there are a lot of different ways to pray for people, and there may be people who pray that way, and God is telling them to pray that way. I don't I guess I don't tell God what to do. So I just bring things before the Lord and say, Lord, you do whatever you want to do. Here's what I'm asking. I'm asking that you remove the cancer from their body, and I'm asking that you take care of this, and I'm asking that all of this be gone in your name. And I'm asking this of you. And I'm obviously your God. Right. So we're asking that the cancer be gone, we're asking that all of this be gone, but I don't really declare before the Lord things that are his job and not mine.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, because with that hypercharismatic, and again, it's okay, hyper charismatic. I gotta be careful. I it could probably sound like every time I say that God told me, Megan, right?
SPEAKER_02God told me, Megan, you right now declare, if I heard from the Lord, you declare in this person that their cancer be gone, I would do it.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02So I'm not saying if someone has ever prayed that they're wrong.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02I just know that I'm I don't declare things that God doesn't tell me to declare. Right. I don't speak on God's behalf without Him telling me very clearly. I don't I don't want to say there there's a verse, I think it's in Haggai, is it Haggai? Oh my gosh, it's probably Haggai. Habakkuk. It's in one of those minor prophets, and I'm I'm probably getting confused where the prophets were going around saying, peace, safety, peace, safety, and God's like, I didn't say that. Yeah. So I don't ever want to tell someone peace safety, like you're gonna be healed this way. You're gonna be healed this way. Sorry, if God didn't tell me that. So I um I ask of the Lord, I bring the person before the Lord, I will declare peace, because I believe that's something that God definitely says, but I'm not gonna declare a disease out of someone's body if God did not say that. I will not be one of those prophets saying peace safety if God did not declare it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so again, I don't know what happened to those prophets before.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And when I'm saying, like, when I said like the hypercharismate, I'm not saying it as a derogatory thing. I'm I'm maybe there may be a better descriptor. What I'm saying is in that, when you're talking about, there's very much a kind of like a we have authority, we've been given authority by God. So therefore, we but it's usually taken to be what we can declare in the name of Jesus gone and it and it should happen, right? There's there's that idea. Name it, claim it theology.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's it's like prosperity gospel of health. Like we we get really mad about the prosperity gospel of like declare that your bank account is gonna grow, declare that like and we get mad about that. I don't see the difference in in people's health. Like, declare that you're going to be free of all you're still telling God what to do. And I am not going to tell God what to do about anything.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, I will ask him for what is on my heart, I will lay it before him and lay it all out, and then I'm going to trust him implicitly with all of it, however, he wants to do it. Yeah. Um I'm just I'm just not in the business of telling you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's funny, like the the gentleman that I was actually meeting with, um, a friend of mine, and and he he was like awesome. He wasn't like, hey, I had a lot of problems with what you share. Because with the message that we shared on suffering was that I shared a quote by Brother Lawrence, author from the 1600s, and he actually expresses in it the view of the sickness is from God. Right. He's like, God has given you this sickness in order to teach you. And I was like, man, that's an interesting, that's very far from the any theology of suffering. I've grown up in a culture, even though I didn't grow up in a more charismatic church, um, definitely grew up in a church where the idea was like, well, God, we live in a broken world, and but God wants to everything to go well for you. You know, but it's just sometimes it doesn't. You know what I mean? That was kind of, and in that, it wasn't, I never even grew up in this context of like, well, maybe God gave you this as a way of refining you, right? And I wasn't saying that I agree with with Brother Lawrence's view that God is the author of that. I was just like present, and I think I said that in the message, I'm presenting it like, hey, this is very different than this. Well, let's look at the word. And what you do find when you look at the word, there's so many conversations about suffering. Now, to my friend's credit, you know, it's like, well, he was like, no, but yeah, but sickness is different because like it's like his point was like, it's not, it's not that God, you won't get sick. You know, like this guy's had a lot of sickness in his family in the last year. It's that it's that when you encounter that, that healing is a promise of God. Like that's his view. Okay. And if it's a promise of God, we gotta, we gotta go for that. It wasn't so much like the health prosperity that if you are a believer, you'll never get sick. It's that like when you get sick, that's not from God. That's part of, and then you go to God, and you know, it's kind of more in that vein. Now, you, what what's your perspective on it? Well, does does the sickness in that sense is like, is it healed now or later? Like we do get new bodies. We talked about death on Sunday, yeah, where it's like, hey, I don't think I'm gonna I have a cold right now if I died this in this moment. If I did, if I'm not declaring that over myself as a curse. We would uh I'm saying I'm so glad you said that because would I have would I have a cold in heaven? Obviously not, right so there is healing that is promised that is real and is bodily healing because we are given new bodies. It just takes a uh a different perspective and a more long-term theology. So it's like your friend is right, healing is a promise. We do experience healing. The end of our of our sickness is always healing if we believe in Jesus and if we're going to him. And so But you don't believe, and and just so you know, like when we do these conversations, it's not the His hands. The point of this is not to declare what the His Hands Church official Right like we're I'm married to you. I've known you for a really long time, you're a close friend. We don't all agree on every little detail. So we're kind of so but I'm but I sensed in you like I would say that God does allow sickness, even to the point of punishment or test. Okay. And I to whatever degree that is like a theological, I might be theologically immature on that, but I do see anecdotally in my own personal life and then in the lives of those around me inexplicable things when it comes to what that sickness is producing in that person in terms of fruit. Like this was a really good thing for them long term. Um, and then I've just seen some really dark lives end in sickness. And I don't think it was just because of their actions. It wasn't like I chain smoked until I got, you know, cancer in the lungs. It was like inexplicably this thing happened after this person had been living in sin in pretty much utter darkness. It's kind of ended in darkness. So whether that's God allowing or God, you know, I don't want to, there's all the theological terms like removing his hand of protection. I don't know what that's right, right. I'm I'm I'm a little mixed up because I grew up on uh a lot of this name it claim it theology charismatic uh stuff. TV preachers, yeah. Where and which is always connected to money. Yes. Right. Because the there's a uh send in your check and we'll pray for your healing kind of a thing. And that and that's and that's what's tough, even from my friend's perspective. Like um you know, he's very much it was really good because it's a good reminder, like he's basing his his thoughts off scripture. Right. Not like that that's the problem I have with that part of the chosen, right? Because anecdotally, it's tough. Like I know people who have I have a good friend whose wife is paralyzed, right? And they're crazy passionate about Jesus. They have been to the prayer meetings, right? They have prayed with faith, and she's never been healed of that. And uh she was in a car accident, got paralyzed, right? So is the stance there that there just wasn't enough faith? I think they went to places where they were just told, like, she you just don't have enough faith, right? So anecdotally, you look at that and you go, something doesn't seem right about that. And that's where I think that that chok like again, chosen. I'll go back to this. No problem, like no major problems with chosen. I cause the same thing when I read an author, like we're doing a book right now on Wednesday nights, and we were even talking last night at home, like we don't agree with the author on some things in the book. Well, he's not God, right? He's an author, and we have to have the ability to like eat the meat, spit out the bones. There's value in that. So I think the same is true with the chosen. I don't need the chosen to be perfect because I already have I have scripture. Well, if you don't know how to read, you need the chosen to be perfect. If you don't know how to listen, you know there you go. But I have to have my Bible has to be in television form. If it's not in television form, it has to be dramatically in the But my point is that's kind of an interesting thing because there's been some things in the chosen that Jesus didn't say, but he said something very similar to that. So it's like artistic license. But that's one of those things where I it's like anecdotally, it kind of like let's put words into the mouth of Jesus that give a lot of people comfort because it helps a lot of people. Well, it's wrestling with the same concept. But Jesus never actually said anything like that. So you know, you kind of get the point is uh it's tough, right? There's a there's a tension there.
SPEAKER_02So I think that's the thing that we have to be careful about is when we when we have something like in our lives, uh a sickness, uh a disease, a situation, whatever's causing the suffering. Because like you said, there's a lot of different things that can cause suffering. It's not just just sickness. And it's we're praying about it and it's not being relieved. Right. Okay. It's easy to take comfort in the idea that Jesus isn't relieving it, God isn't taking it away because he just wants me to live with it. Because we see something like the chosen.
SPEAKER_00It's kind of like the thorn in the flesh with Paul.
SPEAKER_02Or that was we assume, like, oh, well, God just not taking it away. And so we take comfort in this idea that God just not taking it away because he's gonna use it for his glory. That could be true. It could also not be true. It could be a consequence, it could be something we actually need to, I don't know, step up and handle. Maybe we need to have conflict with a person, maybe we need to change something about our lives. Maybe this is something, maybe this is um the result of a bad habit or a bad behavior in my life that God is showing me I need to change. And I think um when I was thinking about suffering this morning, I thought all suffering that I have experienced, all the times, I mean, I've led the prayer team, I can't remember how many years, and I've been on the prayer team longer than that. And I've been in the prayer room every Sunday for years, praying with people that are suffering. It has all been resolved to some extent in varied forms by just going into the presence of God. So whatever my suffering is, caused by myself, another person, natural, whatever. Um if I just would take it into the presence of God and say, This is what is going on, and then let him speak to it, it will resolve. Whether it's Megan, you need to change. This is your fault. Or whether it is, I will give you peace through this, I'm going to walk with you through this, or I'm going to heal this, whatever the resolution is, the presence of God will alleviate the suffering in whatever course it needs to take. Yeah. But when we try to harbor our suffering or keep our suffering from the presence of God, that's where we get into trouble. But the presence of God will resolve it. It will. I think when we try to comfort ourselves with some idea or magic wand it or um take it to a formula of like prosperity, I declare it gone, it doesn't work. But the presence of God will solve our suffering in one form or another because God can meet it, solve it, resolve it, resolve me, whatever is the thing.
SPEAKER_00And it transforms the suffering and gives us the ability to suffer well. Yes. The I gave a message a while ago where I said that Jesus provides us safety. There's like lots of conversation about that afterwards. People having we were wrestling through it. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, and that was the major issue. But the safety I was talking about wasn't safety from suffering and protection from all suffering, but it's the kind of safety I think Stephen was the um the story that I thought of of Stephen being dragged out in front of the city to be stoned. And Stephen is the opposite of safe, but what he's able to do in that moment is like very organized message about the gospel and who Jesus is and what uh where he stands. He sees into heaven and sees God, and there's a spiritual safety that comes even in the midst of suffering that is way greater than any physical safety that you could experience. And so I wasn't meaning to say that nothing bad's ever going to happen to you when you're with Jesus. It's just he provides a spiritual safety that is gonna overcome any natural consequence or suffering, any any spiritual attack, anything that's um going on, even as a consequence of your own actions, you've been forgiven for that. So spiritually, there is a safety that he can provide. And so the suffering just looks a little different and gives you the ability to suffer through it well. Well, and it is true that the suffering, whatever kind of suffering it is, you know, Paul wrote, and I shared this verse in that message, we learned to fully rely on God. Like there's a there's a kind of it's what Brother Lawrence wrote that he had noticed anecdotally that people who have suffered have very often the result of that is they they draw nearer to the Lord and and it brings them closer. Um I mean, even you know, for us in our marriage, the seasons, I mean, I think we've had a really blessed life. And so far, we haven't had a tremendous amount of suffering, I would say. And I also know that that could change at any moment. But like when our oldest was born and he was really sick in the hospital, there was some like instant suffering there. And it did draw me into a time of prayer with the Lord that was unlike anything else I'd ever been in. And so I I guess all that to say that this isn't about tying up all the there's not really a bow to tie on it. Um I love what you shared. Well, I love what both of you shared. It's just like being in the presence of God, being with him is the solution, even ultimately. Like what is heaven? Like if anyone ever says, Well, I just I don't believe in Jesus and I don't but I still want to think I'm gonna go to heaven, it's like, well, Jesus is heaven. Like heaven isn't a cool vacation that you get to go on. Like it's being in the presence of God all the time. You know, so that is heaven. So if if you reject Jesus, you're rejecting heaven because he it's it's him, right? So ultimately, where where our lives are heading as believers is to be bless you, hey Zach? Bless you, bless your heart. You know.
SPEAKER_02Hey, come on, let's do it. That sneeze was a demon.
SPEAKER_00I feel better. I feel better. And that and I think that's even you joking about the sneeze being a demon. Um even what you said a minute ago. I just pronounced a curse on him saying the sneeze was a demon. So that's what they produced curse. So years ago, part of and this is where it gets tough. There's so many people that have taken these these ideas in scripture and they run with them in very, you know, as far away as you can. And so it's everything almost becomes like a cliche caricature version.
SPEAKER_02So we laugh about it, but like I I have really honestly known people who who feel that way or and I think it comes out of like they really don't want they they don't want any of that in their own lives, and it's just it's so hard.
SPEAKER_00It's so hard. I know. And so one time I was talking on stage and I mentioned, you know, it's talking about basketball because I bring that up too much. And uh but I mentioned how like I'm just gonna keep playing it until one of my knees gives out, because that's and they were like, you spoke a curse over yourself. And I was like, What do you mean? They're like, Well, you said you're gonna keep playing until one of your knees gives out, and you just spoke a curse over yourself, like you're basically gonna, you know, one of your knees is gonna go out. And so far, so good.
SPEAKER_02I'm like, Well, I think they just spoke a curse over you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was like, Thanks a lot. You know, I wasn't even thinking about that. You just affirmed the curse. Yeah, you curse-what is that even it's a double curse now. I don't know. So there's people that take it to these extremes. And I think the biblical answer there is that the prayer of a righteous person will be answered. There is a sense that it's like, yes, it's the words you say, and what we say has power. But what we say is an outpouring of our heart. Right. And so if our heart genuinely believes, like, I deserve to have my body break down, maybe there is like an element of like Well, have you have you ever prayed for someone to be physically healed? I have. Yeah. When you prayed for that, did you believe that it would happen? Yes. I've I've prayed it both ways. Okay. Where it's like, I I'm saying it despite my lack of faith. Like the like the guy who says, I believe, help my own belief. Exactly. And I'm just praying it because it's like I know that the Lord can heal, so I'm going that way. But you've but you've also prayed it like I believe the same way. I've definitely prayed both. Yeah. And I've I've seen, I don't think I've seen a miraculous healing in the moment, but I've definitely seen not healings that I wish were healings. And so I've wrestled with that a lot. What do you guys think about my the thing I said about the punishment or like the the that God allows sickness as a test or suffering as a test? Well, obviously there's there that's biblical, right? For sure in the Old Testament there are people that well, there's like the is it Elisha's servant that uh has to go in the Well, the the guy comes to from a foreign land to be healed of leprosy. Naaman. Naaman, thank you. And Elisha, it's Elisha, right? It's Elisha at that point, yeah. Yeah, okay. So Elisha says he's healed, tells him to go get in the in the water. The guy gets mad because he's like, I could have done that in my own. I didn't have to travel here to get in your dirty water. I could have gone to my my water.
SPEAKER_02But uh, no, our water is special. Yeah. Special water, special.
SPEAKER_00So he goes and does it and he's healed, and then he tries to offer Elisha like a monetary gift for it, and Elisha refuses. The servant accepts. But then the servant accepts like the clothing. Right. He goes back and like, hey, I'll take it for I'll take it to Alexia. He keeps it for himself and then he gets leprosy. Yeah. Like, you know. Now, did he get leprosy from the clothing? That's a good thing. Because leprosy back in the day traveled like the guy had been healed of leprosy. But did he just did he just take a bunch of stuff that a leprosy-cause you were told you would not have been allowed to touch that stuff. So did he just get leprosy because God dared him with leprosy Baptists? Or did he get leprosy coming back in the page? But my point is we see a we it the story definitely reads as a punishment. As a punishment. Now, what some people will say, yeah, that's Old Testament, man. That's old covenant. That is still that is not the new covenant of Jesus wiping away our iniquities, dying on the cross as a replacement. So we're no longer in the uh mess up boom. Unless you're Ananias and Sapphira. Unless you're Ananias and Sapphira. That's the point. Theology gets tough when you try to have a clean it's very difficult to have a very neat and tidy Which they steal from the early church, and then they're found both dead instantly. Well, what happens is Aeneas dies first, and then his wife comes and they ask her, like, hey, did you really give all of it?
SPEAKER_02She's like, We totally did it.
SPEAKER_00We gave it all away. Oh, well, that's weird because we're burying your husband right now, and then she's it's the craziest thing. And then they all worship the Lord. Yeah. Um But uh yeah, no, that's the point, is there are those stories, right? It's like it's like Calvinism, like diehard Calvinism, five-point Calvinism, which is like tries to put God in this very orderly box. So there's just mo moments in Jesus where it's like, yeah, but what about that thing? Kind of breaks the box. So yeah. Um, but there there very much seems to be uh for some people, there very much seems to be this shift, and there's at least less of that in the New Testament than in the old. Um but I guess to answer your question, I'm not trying to cop out of it. Do I believe that God Well Paul says it too? He says that's the reason some of you are sick.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wait, okay, where's yeah, it's because there's sin amongst you. Right.
SPEAKER_02Actually, that's the reason some of you are sick and even dying.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. In 2 Corinthians or 1 Corinthians? That's my gut on where it is, but I don't know. So this is like, yeah, uh so there's asking about it, and he's like, Well, that's the reason some of you are sick is because y'all are acting acting a fool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh it's I I I think that everything that we experience passes through the hand of God. Everything. And I don't think you can make any biblical argument that that is not true.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02So everything we experience passes through the hand of God. Everything. Yeah. And it's it when you start to like go through that, um everything we experience, everything every human being experiences, it goes through the hand of God. He is all seeing, all knowing, and all powerful. So everything that we go through, all of it has passed through his hand, it starts to get um interesting when if you've been someone who's been through things that are very evil, and you have to go, how did that pass through God's hands?
SPEAKER_00You don't think he limits his power in the giving us of free will?
SPEAKER_02Well, no, because everything.
SPEAKER_00Like everything I do goes through Justin's hand, but I still have free will in the youth group.
SPEAKER_02Is it like that or is it I'm saying he has seen he has never he has never not seen what's happening.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Does that make sense? So it's not like he's like, oh, I missed that one. Man, I would have stopped it if I had seen what was going on. He's not up there like seeing some of it and not seeing other bits of it, nor does he not have the power to stop it if he wanted to. So everything everything is at his disposal, everything is at his power, and everything is so all of it has passed through his ability and knowledge. I'm not saying he is sitting there going, ah, you're tornado. He's not like he's not like send he's not Zeus like sending lightning bolts.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, even like so sometimes, and again, theology is one of those funny things. Theology meaning how we think about God, like it shifts as time goes on, we experience things that might shift your theology. Like I I grew up in Tornado Alley. And so when tornadoes would come, it's easy to be like, why did God let this happen? It's like, well, why'd you build a house where there's tornadoes all the time? You know what I mean? I mean, honestly, like no, so there's cause some of it is this the world we live in, even the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm not saying I'm saying the world is broken.
SPEAKER_00I'm not saying that God is causing it That's what my point I'm I'm backing that up with you, is that I grew up in a place where every time a tornado would hit, there'd be people like, I just don't know why God let this happen. And it's like, well, we live in the plains of Missouri. There's tornadoes all the time. Why is this tornado because it hit your house from God when you were totally fine? Right.
SPEAKER_02And tornadoes have existed there forever. Yeah. Um but but everything that we've ever experienced has has been under his knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. Um and so those are things that we when we suffer and we go, well, why did this happen? Those why questions become really hard and difficult. But again, bringing them into bringing all of that into the presence of God is where that suffering is resolved. Yeah. Um, even when you've been through really, really difficult traumatic even traumatic um and um really hard things. When you take those questions, those experiences, um, and all that into God's presence, say, God, this is this happened, I've been through this, I walk this is the suffering that my life has been through. I'm gonna bring it into your presence and let you sort this out. That is where that suffering is released, relieved, um, sorted through, healed. Because again, the suffering of the cross is what heals all suffering. Um and it's the suffering of the cross through which we get the resolution of all human suffering. Um, and we're waiting for ultimate you know, release of all suffering when we get to heaven and we get restored humanity and we get restored earth and we get you know the ultimate um resolution of everything. But for now, the way we are, the suffering of the cross has made a way for us to experience um restoration and even resurrection of the suffering we go through now in a in the midst of a broken world. Yeah. Um that as Jesus followers, when we experience brokenness, um because that's what we live, we live in a tornado-ridden world where we experience all of tornadoes, natural, human, and otherwise, um we can take those to uh Jesus who went through the cross and made a way for us to h experience restoration and resurrection from all of that. Um but we have to take it to his we have to take it to his presence. When we when we hold it ourselves, we just make a mess of it. Um and end up actually messing up other people too. When we when we live with that, we end up becoming our own personal tornado of destruction.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean it's it's and more suffering. Yeah. And again, it's it gets complicated. I even keep thinking about what you said about the verse of the sickness, and I'm trying not to be like playing devil's advocate in my own head. It's like, well, does it say that God sent the sickness, or are they sick because they're all going out and doing stuff they shouldn't be doing and they're getting sick, you know? Like, hey, what are y'all maybe who knows?
SPEAKER_02They're tornadoes of destruction, one way or the other. They're they are creating and and messing up destruction. Fast of all, I wonder whose child that is.
SPEAKER_00Um but I guess to wrap it up through the cross, it can be resurrection. Yeah. So there's tension there, there's suffering, and there's a lot of verses that talk about suffering, and a lot of verses that talk about suffering in a context that is like God will use this for his glory and for your betterment. You will grow, you will strengthen, you will learn to rely on the Lord, you will grow in endurance. I mean, was it consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, when you suffer? Now that's that he's talking in that sense, I think about persecution. And that's the point my friend was making. Hey, that's persecution. I feel like suffering's too broad of a category. You know, I don't, he's like, persecution, yeah. We have no expectation of being but like sickness, I don't think God's the author of our sickness at all. And I understand that perspective. Um, but no matter where you lie on it, the reality is can we pray for healing?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Should we?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Should we endure and do that over and over again? If if if you if you're a widow, go for it. Go for it. Um, but be open to God doing something different than your expectations or hopes, maybe. We see a lot of that in scripture, and that's not a cop-out. I don't feel like that's a cop-out. Um perspective being like, Lord, heal me. It's kind of like Paul in Philippians, like, I'd love to get out of this jail. I got stuff I'd love to do with you guys. I actually, he says, I'm I'm confident I will see you again. He doesn't see them again. Um, I don't believe. He does. No, I actually thought about that. But like in the context that it's written. Yes, he does. Well, and it may actually be, hold on, we don't exactly know. We might be talking about that. Yeah. So either way, um, but yeah, healing is real, suffering is real, Jesus is real. And I feel like my brain is like very barely wrapping around this concept, so I'm sure more people have questions. Yeah, we might have to do a follow-up to it. Yeah, we'll see. But for now, part one-ish of this conversation, we'll do more later.