SPEAKER_01 0:08

Because what happened was I was giving the message. I got you. And I mentioned I got to the demon part, and I started having this where the in Acts the demon-possessed girl is saying to you know about Paul and Silas, these men are servants of the one true God or most high God, and they're here to. And I was like, and I had read something that was really interesting that the that demons always declare who Jesus is. Like Peter's the first of the disciples to say, I think you're the Messiah. Right. And in my brain right now, I'm having a hard time remembering Well, there's the But like the demon-possessed. What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth, son of the Most High God? Yes. That's before Peter ever says it. I'm like almost 100% sure. When they go across the, you know. Anyway, there are stories in the in the Bible of Jesus having interactions with demonic presences, people possessed by demons, and they like just this is who you are. Like, cause that because they know who he is. Yeah. And so I thought that's an interesting thought. They get to see the uncloaked a little bit. So I was sitting there thinking, like, man, isn't it cool that before people recognize who Jesus is. And so then I was like, well, this is there's probably people. I was having this mental thing in my mind. There's people in the room that are going, I don't believe in demons. I don't believe in demons. This is and I started to go that way, and I was like, this is So I thought you were in the room and I was like, Madison's gonna hate this. Yeah. But we'll just have a conversation about this. I don't hate it. Well I hate it because that's a big topic to just be like. And we're talking about it. And honestly, I don't have a lot prepared for it. It's not like I have some deep study that I've done. Right. But I have had a lot of uh conversations, thoughts, and I'm sure you have too. Uh Madison, what is your um give me your like context for like demon demonology, I guess is the word. Like the the con the like where I'm coming from. Growing up. What I experienced. If let's take like twelve, thirteen-year-old Madison. If someone would have come to you and said, demons, am I right? What is what is that what is your context about it? I think it kind of lands in that same category or bucket as angels. You instantly go like angels and demons. You've got I think of White shoulder Cusco. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um what's it called? Emperor's New Groove. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got like the little little cronk and like the Yeah, he's got the white angel on the shoulder and the red, red demon. Yeah, so okay. And so you think of that. And you said just a minute ago, like I think there might be people in the room that don't believe in demons. I think that's probably true, but it's probably less true than it seems. I think the people that don't believe in stuff like that are just really vocal and more heavy argument, maybe. Yeah. But I think most people have this sense of like there are spiritual forces that are dark and act against you. And so I probably would have landed in that camp of like, I know they're real, I have no idea how they yeah, how they affect anything. Like what the point is. Yeah, yeah. So probably not like even thinking back to being a kid and seeing something like Emperor's New Groove, or it's very classic cartoon trope of I mean, I think there's Looney Tunes, Porky Pig, isn't it? I'm about to say if they've seen like those old ones. Something in your brain is like, yeah, I understand the idea of good influences, bad. Right. And I think that there's that in the world. And there seems to be some interaction with people, like there's some focus on people. Right. Like there's uh temptation, like the shoulder thing of like the angels want you to do the good thing, right? The demons want you to do the bad thing. Right. Like and then wrapped up in that is just like just how cartoons helped us see it. Exactly. Absolutely just all kinds of uh imagery that isn't biblical, sure, but that's what we tend to think about. The pitchfork and the thrills and horns. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which isn't so far removed from the Bible, it's just taking on a weird character like when it comes to like the beast. I think of like the beasts with the horns in Revelation, and you think of the snake being a satanic entity. So, like, okay, for me as a kid, I didn't start going to church till I was in fourth grade. I think we talked about this before. And by fourth grade, you've actually you know, I have a I have a daughter who's in fifth, and so then my middle son's in third. So okay, I can picture fourth grade pretty well. Um, by the time you're in fourth grade, you've got a decent understanding of the world and you've seen things. And so I remember there was this movie. You ever seen the movie Legend with Tom Cruise? No. Okay, it's a weird movie. It it's fantasy adventure with like elves, unicorn. Kroll's the spinning, like uh, it's like the the weapons, like the spinning boomerang weapon. Dude, I haven't seen a movie since I was a kid. Kroll, I've it was definitely one of those movies on when I was a kid. But uh yeah, we're we're dealing, we're getting deep into the non-Lord of the the pre-Lord of the Rings Willow. We're in that, yeah, we're in the 80s fantasy dark crystal. It's a rough genre in that time. But Tom Cruise plays in this movie called Legend. And Tim Curry, the same actor who played uh famously Rocky Horror Picture Show. That movie, and then he was the clown the clown from Pennywise. He was the mini-series version of that. I watched that as a kid with my parents. It was like, hey kids, it's on. It's terrifying. Kids like clowns, right? Yeah. But he plays the devil. Yeah. In the most I mean, do you have your phone? No. My phone can't do what you're gonna try to do with my phone. Okay, hold on. Hold on. I'm just gonna show you. If you've never seen this, um I'll go Tim Curry legend. Is this don't mess with the Zohan? It's just that's a deep uh joke that no one will No, no, I just want to show you like this is the most riveting content right now. Hold on. For our audio only listeners, Justin's texting on his phone right now. All right, here you go. This this picture is Tim Curry in Legend. Oh, yeah. I've seen that. Okay. I've seen him. Wait, show the show the camera. Or I guess Zach will just put the picture up. Yeah, yeah. It is like the giant horns. He has hooves, he's a completely Hellboy. There you go, very much that. And I'd never seen Hellboy, I didn't know where that was when I was a kid. Right. I don't know if it existed when I was a kid. Maybe it's newer. I think it's like 2006 or I saw that movie when I was a kid. And I think I maybe that's what introduced me to this idea, but I think even when I saw that, I was like, Oh, that's the devil. Right. Like I knew that. And I never went to church. So all that to say, it was just a really unnecessarily long way of saying we have all these conceptions that come from culture and and uh it's so ubiquitous that you're saying that when we read that stuff in the Bible, something in us is already like, yeah, that's probably real, but yeah, definitely not sure how. Not sure how or to what extent. We've talked about it where it's like the spiritual and the physical, are they completely separate? Are they completely overlapping, or do they overlap somewhat? Where how big is that overlap? And how big is the demon overlap? And specifically, I think the question that if I was gonna like make a clickbait title for this podcast, for most Christians, I think the question becomes how much authority do demons or Satan have over my life as a Christian? Yeah. And the range of that. So I'd be interested to get into that. But specifically, you were talking about this moment in Acts where Paul's going around preaching about Jesus. Yeah, he arrives in f in Philippi. Yep. And there's a as the Bible describes in Acts 16, there is a slave girl who is possessed by a demon. Sometimes those are also called evil spirits, same idea. And because she's possessed, she actually is described in the scripture as having divination and power. She has the power to like, she can tell the predict your future. She can and apparently this is proven true enough. It's it's it's at the very least, like convince people there's like small business owners that are like using her money for their and they're making money on her, and people pay to have her tell them their their future or whatever. And uh when Paul and Silas and and a young Timothy are there starting a church in Philippi, she just starts yelling whenever they're around. These men are servants of the Most High God, and they're here to tell you the way of salvation. Like and which is Yep, that's exactly who we are, and that's why we're here. But it's like annoying to Paul. It's clearly annoying enough and getting in the way of the mission enough. Yeah. Must have just been crazy and huge distraction. You're going around in a place that's never heard of this before, right, or you're adding new context to people that have heard this before, and you're trying to communicate it in like a winsome way. You're trying to be like friendly and you know, doing everything with respect to people's stories and lives. And then someone's just like, I love Jesus, and Jesus is who he says he is. Like, this is stop. This is great. And so Paul loses it, his he doesn't lose it. I'm gonna fashion a whip. It's it seems to indicate that Paul just is over it. Yeah. And he commands the evil spirit to leave her, and the spirit does, and she is now free of that. Yeah. And her masters, owners are mad because they just lost their she no longer can do that. Right. Um and so and it just it's one of those stories where I will say this the New Testament. No what I was communicating on stage, maybe what I should have said instead of some of you might be like, I don't believe in that, is that in modern culture, some people would equate demons with fairy tales. And it's just not true at all. It's like the cartoon, it truly is just the cartoons. Right. There's a gonna be a wide variety of of where you're at on that. I would say that in Paul's time in the ancient world, I I would say that belief in evil spirits was ubiquitous. Like that's didn't matter what religious culture you're coming from. That was and we come from a very postmodern career. Like we've gone through the s the paces of science tells us this and there's no measurable demon. I mean, I didn't do any uh hardcore historical research for what I'm this pocket, because we just this is a more off the cuff one. But I'm pretty sure a big part of the Great Wall of China was not just military strategy, but also evil spirits from the north. Interesting. Like and so I might when I say that big asterisk of like maybe I'm misreading that, but I remember that I do remember like learning about that. And so the ancient world was very, very um interested in the spiritual. All ancient cultures created some version of a divine present, you know, the divine and how that interacts with the world, and there's influence between the two, which is why you have ancient cultures sacrificing people to appease the gods. There's some Yeah, you know what I mean. Here's what was really like, you know, asking about 13-year-old Madison versus I'm 29 now. The things that I've just you know perspective is has changed. You mean pre-mustached Madison to mustache Madison. Yeah, that's you made the joke on stage that that's like really the only difference. That's the only difference. Which isn't true. I saw, you know, you've I was skinnier then. That's not what I'm saying. You were you were Yeah, just more hair and more body skinny. That's it. That's it. No, no, no. You've Oh I see. I'm saying you've you have Okay, yeah, we get it. You're more of a man. I've I've grown up. But um I've always believed when I read the Bible that they're sacrificing their kid to nothing. And I think that's a mis a misreading of the reality. Like Molech is nothing in my mind. Yeah, so Old Testament, uh like the Philistines and and those groups of people. Dagon, when the statue of Dagon falls down, what I am so uh the Ark of the Covenant is captured by these uh people that don't worship Yahweh, the one true God, our God. And they put the Ark of the Covenant, which represents the presence of Yahweh, in the their like hall of statues, essentially. Yeah. And their Almost as a way to mock it. Yeah. Their idol statue of Dagon, a pagan god, falls down and it's basically like, hey, that's odd, it fell down, and then they pick it up, and then the next time it falls down, it's broken. Uh I always pictured that as like God was knocking a statue down. So not to show the people that you know, I'm not sure. You're doing nothing, right? But not actually a spiritual authority that was real that was surrendering itself to the presence of the true creator God. Yes. And same with Molech, I was like, you're sacrificing your kids for nothing. But actually, like, I don't know. Isn't there a reality where these demons do have authority and these people in their dark and twisted ways are receiving some earthly benefit from some demonic authority for the trade off trade-off of killing your kid? Like, that doesn't seem it sounds crazy maybe when I say it out loud, but it doesn't seem so distant from the way the spiritual overlaps with the real. It is strange, isn't it? Physical. Uh and obviously so much of what we're about to say by some people could be viewed as like offensive, whatever. But you have all these ancient cultures, and it didn't really matter if it was you're talking about like Mesopotamia, right? Like that part of the world, okay, but you also have in South America these ancient cultures and they're sacrificing children. Doing the same thing. And these other people, they're sacrificing and and as a human being, like I don't know what I I do know that in ancient cultures where children tended not to live as long, you probably didn't get as attached to your kids as early in life. Right. Because it's just sort of preserv I mean, they some culture wouldn't even name children until a certain age because the likelihood of death was so high that I guess it maybe protects you from the pain. But I still have a feeling that like people love their kids. Like my kids are amazing to me. As human as Yes. And there's something we used protect our children, we raise our children, so sacrificing a child. If anyone came to you and said, Hey, I got this for you, all you gotta do is kill you. Be like, Well, no. Right. Like I it's my even the zygorat, like the the pyramids and the ziggurats and all of those like structures. It's like people, you know, point to aliens as to the reason as to why like humans have had these simil similar tendencies. And architecturally, a pyramid's a pretty simple way to I mean triangles, there's there's only so many shapes you can make with ancient uh tools. Right. But to get you a square, I can get you a rectangle, triangle, if you give me time. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And that I think we see in scripture, God humbles the very first of those, the Tower of Babel, and says, like, hey, no, there isn't going to be a you reaching to the heavens. And so what people settled for was reaching to the demonic, you know, on those on tops of those. So maybe maybe we go back even a little bit further. Like so the biblical perspective of demons would be that they are fallen angels, that when God created at some point. I'm like, oh my gosh. Let's go back even further. God made everything. Aaron Powell Some of this is more clearly talked about in apocryphal books of the book of Enoch, I believe, describes a lot of like the details of the fall of the angels. But there is language in Scripture, or at least in the culture that the Scriptures came from, that there was a rebellion in heaven. Yeah. Ezekiel has some of this. Yeah, it's a third of the angels. A third of the angels, right. And again, it's always like in these pockets that's never there's not a chapter that says So here's exactly how this is. Once upon a time it's before God decided to make you He had angel buddies. Right. So we don't we don't know when exactly in the timeline. Even Jesus says I saw him fall from the heavens. Does he say like lightning? Like lightning. Yeah. So Luke 10, 17. Oh, you're just guessing. I'm just like, wow, Madison. Okay. So there's this concept that the there are spiritual beings. Okay. And Bible Project did a really cool uh series a few years ago on spiritual beings. I think that's the language they use, spiritual beings. Yeah. So you have you have creation, the earth, and everything on it, and we're part of that. But then you have spiritual beings who were created apart from us, and we see from the earliest chapters of the Bible interaction. And the serpent in the garden would be the first story we would have of a spiritual being interacting with humans and influencing them to disobey God. Yeah, and you wonder, is that the rebellion or does the rebellion happen before that? It's not made clear. It's not made clear. But there is there's a clear concept in scripture that just as just as the God, the one true God, created the earth and the creatures that live on the earth, which we would be the the highest of, you know, the most um the the ones in charge of it. He also there are also spiritual beings that were created by God. They're not like him or or the Father, Son, the Spirit or the preexistence. They were created by God, and there was some type of rebellion where they said, you know, we're not doing this anymore. And those would be described as fallen angels, banished to some degree from the presence of God. And from the Old Testament stories, I mean, you want to go into like the Nephilim and stuff like that, if you wanted to get into all that, they those fallen angels hanging out here and influencing influencing people, sometimes maybe even whole cultures, and maybe passing themselves off as gods, influencing in what way we're not sure. Right. But that's the earliest stories we have of what we would call demons, fallen angels rebelled against God, now actively working to deceive, yeah, and destroy maybe that which God loves most, which would be people. And so if Satan, Jesus says Satan is a liar, and Satan being the the the the highest ranking of those He's the father of lies, and these are the little children of lies. And I think something that's helpful to know, even just as a Christian, is like God is omnipotent and omnipresent and omniscient. Like he's everywhere all at once, he can do anything and he knows all things all the time. Satan isn't. Nope. He's he has to kind of work much more on a distributed authority sort of basis. Like we see Satan go and tempt Jesus. That's a big project for like I'm not gonna send little demon underling to go tempt right to tempt Jesus. And so I think even as a Christian, to know that um because we it's a spiritual reality, we imagine we lump it in together with the powers of God. We go almost like yin and yang. Exactly. Like they're equal in power, they're not. But Satan is way weaker and way more under Jesus' foot than we would even expect. And what he's attempting to do right now, from my perspective, is take as many people out with him on his way out. Like he's just trying to mess with people. And so lying, attacking, tempting, God doesn't tempt us. Um God can test us, exactly. But he doesn't tempt us, he doesn't try to get us to do evil. Correct. Right? He but he he can allow us to be or even put us in situations where we're like, hey, let's see if you're ready for this. Sure. You know what I mean? Um and sometimes I say that because there is in certain languages, tempt and test are pretty there's like God tested Abraham, exactly but he wasn't tempting exactly. But either way, but Satan tempts. He's he's trying, I want I really want you to do that. I want you to ruin your thing. Yes, please. Ruin my life and everybody else's life too. And so um maybe just to ask the question plainly, can a Christian be possessed by a demon? We see biblical instances of demon possession, and Jesus obviously has authority over that. But in modern Christianity, I don't think the Protestants really believe that there's Christian demon possession. I guess Catholics might. I've only grown up in a phone a friend. Call Fred Godwin. That's not his name. The first time I put it in my phone, I forgot the other G other O, it's Goodwin. But then I just felt like it was appropriate because he loves God so much. So I just kept it. It's a Godwin. Yeah. I'm phoning a friend, sorry. The reason I'm calling Fred is he is a liturg he was liturgical as a pastor for years. So he's not Catholic. But hey Fred, I'm actually talking to you on a podcast real quick. Okay. Um so we called you because Madison and I realize we've only grown up um well, you're Protestant too, non-Catholic, but you were um more Catholic? Fancy Protestant. Does that make sense? Madison said fancy, fancy Protestant. He's much more Catholic, right? So Okay, so we're talking about demons. And the question is can a Christian, someone who has put their their trust and faith in Jesus, be possessed by a demon?

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Okay, so and and no.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Influenced, yes. Would you even say like oppressed?

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Oppressed, yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Okay, mean and oppressed would be like this demon has significant continual influence over your life.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Like the Christian is not willing to to give the kind of forgiveness and grace or accept the forgiveness and grace that uh Jesus has already extended to them.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Okay. So this would be like a if you own it was a house analogy, the demon doesn't live in your house, but it like has camped out in your front yard and keeps throwing eggs at your house and messing with your stuff.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Or even you l you've left the door open and it keeps throwing stuff inside too.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Okay, there you go. That's even better. There you go. So you're win it keeps lifting up your windows and throwing all the garbage in. All right.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Um I've never had to do a deliverance of a Christian. I have done a uh I I've done a uh deliverance of and an exorcism of someone who didn't believe, and I've done many deliverances of people who are believers.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

So when you say you've done a deliverance of a believer.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

Oh, absolutely. Correct. Deliverance them from the oppression or deliver them from the harassment. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Okay, harassment. That's good. Okay. But exor exorcism, because again, Madison and I both grew up. Well, Madison's here at his hands. I grew up Southern Baptist, so we didn't really have an exorcism ministry in the Southern Baptist Church that I was part of. And we kind of always grew up being like, there's no way that a Christian could be possessed. And I would say that we also didn't even have a theology about like oppression or harassment, but you've done exorcisms.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

I have done n exorcism of an unbeliever.

unknown 22:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

I've done more deliverances than I could possibly imagine of believers.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Cool. All right. Does that help, Madison? That helps. Do you have any questions for Fred? No, that I mean, that's good. Good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Do you want to hear the last one I did or just the first one?

SPEAKER_01 23:11

No. No, I mean you're awesome. Yeah. All right, man. That's great. Thanks, Fred. Thank you. All right. So then the question comes. That was kind of Catholic Fred. He was a liturgical priest for 30 years. Anglican. He was Anglican and then yeah, yeah, Anglican is the is the But the Anglican church and like the Episcopal Church, there were like breakaways and it's you know the whole thing. It's complicated. It's not anymore. The question then goes, so what am I dealing with? Right. Actually, no, I know. I was just telling Zach, I was like, yeah, I'm trying to work on my faith, realizing there's stuff that I've struggled with for the past twenty years now. So it is still here. It's still here. Shouldn't I be past this? Exactly. You know, I the land there's so much Christian language we could use for it. Stronghold is one that I've heard. Let no root of bitterness spring up among you. And he definitely connected it to unforgiveness that if you're not willing to forgive, that gives you a lot of people. But I think what it is, I mean, doesn't um is there is there a verse? Sometimes there's so I I obviously it should have an encyclopedia, encyclopedic knowledge of scripture. But sometimes there's lank there's language in the Bible where, or at least language connected to our faith, it's so common that you go, is that in the Bible? Or is it there language about letting Satan get a foot in the door? Is that in the S.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

I don't know if that's in the Bible or not. I don't think so. But there's at least this concept. I always grew up being her like, if you let him get a foot in the door, he will try to knock the door. Like he's trying to destroy. Jesus says, Yeah, you know, the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. And so there's this concept that the evil Satan and his minions, the demons, which Ephesians chapter 6 talks about spiritual warfare and it very much describes things in an organized military way that you have, like you mentioned, it's not that Satan is everywhere all at once and he's tempting you directly, tempting me directly, tempting Zach in Zach's ankle, all that kind of stuff. But he does there is an organized body, so to speak, of course. Yeah, he can write a letter to the such and such dis like geographical area. To the demon of Canton. Northern Georgia. Could you please who's in charge of Canton? Oh, I hate that. Zerbitron. He used to be in charge of all of Georgia until that one. The distributed authority thing doesn't just come from Paul's language toward the Ephesians, but also from the book of Daniel, where the the prince of Persia is described as a basically a spiritual authority over Persia that the archangel Michael or Gabriel, I'm not sure. I think it's Michael, is what's traditionally known and a vision to uh to Daniel, and he's like, sorry, this guy over Persia was really holding me off. Yes. Had to battle him before I could get to you. Yeah, so Daniel uh man, there's so many. Read the Bible. Please read the Bible. Like read it. Because so Daniel is praying. Daniel is a godly man who uh is under the authority of it's Babylon with Daniel, right? Yeah, so Nebuchadnezzar. Yep. And then he actually, I mean, he continues past Nebuchadnezzar. So this story might be it might be post-Nebuchazar, because then Babylon gets conquered by the Persians. Yeah. So this story might be after Nebuchadnezzar. Either way, he's praying, and God, like he's not getting the help he needs. And then the an archangel, which according to us trying to piece it together from scripture, you have just like we're joking around, like ranks of demons, you have ranks of angels, archangels high ranking. Archangel shows, hey man, I'm late. I was trying to get here to help you out. But that Prince of Persia just had me, I had to deal with him. Like there's resistance. And that's crazy to think about. Like there's angels and demons locked in spiritual. So that's where some of the like this is an equal good and equal bad can there is some merit to that. But when it comes from the big bad and the big good, God is so much more powerful than Satan and is so much more overcoming and all of that. It's not close. But the challenge we have is that God is definitely not uh, well, I made the world just let's see what happens, but it's very clear he's he's not like that, he's not detached and we're not a big experiment. But the Bible's very clear that he has and we can get some interesting theology here. Satan is allowed right now to have a lot of influence. Some would say that we're it's because of us. And I think there's the interesting this tracks. Yeah. Because when when God creates the earth, and he creates us and he gives us charge of the earth, he delegates his authority to us. Uh to rule it, subdue it, yes. Which we should have done to the snake. Yeah. Which I mean, where would we be if demons were under our foot? Do you know what I mean? In the same way that like livestock is. Yeah. And so there's a certain, yeah, you know, like what is maybe demon taste really good. No, chicken. You're saying like we've raised like no. No, I don't disagree. But we it's under our authority. Exactly. But when we obeyed the serpent, there there are those who would say that was God meant it. He gave us authority. We then handed that authority over to an evil spirit, and in doing so, submitted ourselves to that and gave Satan authority that he did not have up until that point. And now he's still existing with that authority until the return of Jesus, when this this world is like fully on a global scale, but on a personal scale. On a personal scale. Just as sin entered the world through one man's uh or death entered the world through one man's sin, so did life through Jesus' sacrifice. And so we aren't submitting or having to submit, becoming slaves to the sin of Adam and Eve. We actually have like the ability to rise above that through the power of the Holy Spirit. We're no longer slaves to our sin nature. Right. Which is really inconvenient as a Christian when you're like, well, then why do I keep sinning? Yeah, yeah. And that's what you're asking. Like, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with me? I feel the same way. If that what's wrong with us? Zach? What's wrong with us? Well, Zach's Zach's ankles messed up. That's what's wrong with that. We're still not sure where that comes from. Okay, so there's a lot of language we could use for it. Like Fred said, it could be a spiritual oppression, a spiritual harassment. Like by submitting to sin in areas of life, do we give that influence over us and do we do that? Some would just say it's it's a flesh habit. Like your flesh is you have your spirit, your flesh. Flesh kind of represents who you are apart from God. Before spirit is that part of you that God has brought to life through your faith in Jesus, and um sometimes our flesh is really well fed, and we're used to living out of it, and it doesn't go away. And the spirit Jesus said that your spirit is willing, your flesh is weak, right? Strongholds, like these behaviors that are just really deeply rooted in your psyche, and it's hard. Yeah. Like you go back to it as a coping mechanism or whatever. There's all kinds of things. So I've heard it described as everything from spiritual oppression to um spiritual oppression to bad habits. Yeah. You know what I mean? And the tough thing is, in Paul's day, and I've read this in many commentaries, in Paul's day, the world in which Paul lived was so obsessed with demons and evil spirits that they had like entire we would classify this as incredibly superstitious. Yeah. I mean, there's like a evil spirit under every rock, and if you don't do the right thing, say the right thing, that evil spirit's gonna get in if you eat the wrong, it's gonna the reason they washed their hands in certain ways was so the evil spirits didn't get into their bodies through the food that they ate. And if they interacted with all that. So you have that side of things, which you'd be like, hey, this is which persists to this day in terms of people trying in an attempt to be helpful and bring some clarity to the topic, I think have overcategorized some things that just aren't scriptural. Okay. Where it's like I can recognize um you know, there's some things in scripture that are in the world that aren't addressed in the scripture, like um cancer. Like there's not like a story about cancer, but we can look at cancer and be like, this is cancer, we can qualify it as such. I think And there are people today who would say that cancer is spiritual. Like if you have cancer, well, yeah. I mean, there are still people that yeah, but and so to try to bring some clarity, people will say this is the spirit of such and such, and this is the spirit of such and such, but what they're doing is categorizing different kinds of demonic attacks into certain buckets to say this is the bucket of healing, and what you need is healing, physical healing, and it's demonic thing that messes with your body. There's the sexual sin, there's the pride, there's like all of these different buckets that I'm calling this a demon by a name. And while that's not in scripture exactly, it's kind of connected with scripture saying, because this character in scripture struggled with something similar, or this character, I don't know. So it's it's a whole thing. So the best example I can give. Okay, so we've got this spectrum of everything's a demon. Yeah, every sickness is caused by a demon, every whatever's caused by a demon. So the answer to everything is deliverance, deliverance, right? Right. And then the other spectrum is like that's very rare. Even a Christian be like, that's I believe there's an overlap between the physical and the spiritual. I just believe it's a tiny sliver. It's very rare. And the only like most of it's just you just have a bad habit. You just have a you just gotta just muscle through it. Muscle through it, power through it, get some discipline in your life, you know. Go watch a Jocko video. Yeah, Jocko Willink. What has the last name? Willink? Willink, yeah. Willink, yeah, like come on. Wake up at 5 a.m. Yeah. Extreme ownership. Yes, that kind of stuff. Um yeah, so there's all this this spectrum. I would say that the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, okay? And if you push me on, okay, you're saying like like which do you lean to? Is it less overlap, more? I think it's probably more than we think. Yeah. I'd lean that way too. Yeah, I lean that way, and I think it's probably more than I think. Like I think there's a lot of things in my life that happen that I don't even consider because I'm part of American culture. Right. I don't I don't pause enough to go, oh. You've actually talked, I don't have to go into detail, but sure. I think you've had, I've seen in you in the last year some experiences where you're like, oh, it's spiritual. You know, and I think God's open, like And it feels so dumb to go, like, ah, there's an enemy who's trying to ruin my life? Huh. It's almost like I've been told this via the revelation scripture the whole time. But ultimately I would say this: I'm a Jesus follower, and I've said this on the stage before, and this might sound a little practiced in rehearsed, it's because I've said it before. Um, I'm a Jesus follower. So the number one person who should influence how I think and and look at the world is Jesus. Jesus clearly believed in demons. He talked about them, he talked to them. Right. Okay. Um I actually read a commentator one time that very much came from more of the modern era, so like think 19, early 1900s. 1930s. Yeah, yeah. That era, very scientific, and and so his commentary is really good, especially the historical stuff. But anytime there's a story of the miraculous, he tends to like he described one time the feeding of the 5,000. And it was like he was almost embarrassed by it being a miracle story to his modern audience. So he was like, he thought everyone had food on them, and this little boy like Jesus inspired him, and they all said, let's all share. But then it's like, well, where'd all the baskets of leftovers come from? Like they're all like, I've got so much like what it doesn't make any sense. It's a miracle. Like just call it that. But you know, I think in that era of history, a lot of modern Western churches were sort of like embarrassed by Yeah, and so things like uh a demon possession or fits on the ground, it's like, well, that was clearly just epilepsy. Just epilepsy. And so what he would say is that Jesus, when he interacted with people and delivered them from demons, this commentator would write that uh they didn't have a demon. Right. But Jesus knew that they thought they did, and because their culture was so ingrained to believe that he performed he basically did a little dog and pony show so that they wouldn't believe they were healed unless they believed that the demon was gone. Right. And rather than correct them, he just was like, ah, fine, yeah, demon's gone. And in reality, they just had a sickness and he healed. And number one, it's like, well, that's still a miracle. Yeah. I should address that supernatural. You know what I mean? But he he would even, if that commentator would actually say, uh, because I read a lot of this stuff where he would say people could become so convinced that they were possessed by a demon that they would do the things that they thought demons would do. So you could almost like give yourself as well. I think people can do that. There's something there. There's a like, okay. But Jesus spoke, but I don't see Jesus as being particularly uh unwilling to correct people. Yeah, and it's he's not deceptive. He's not deceptive. So yeah, and we have his temptation with Satan directly. I mean, Jesus gets one-on-one with Satan. That's not just a metaphor to describe temptation. No, no, it's not. I don't I think that's that's a good thing. I don't think that either. And then, you know, even what you're describing about how people have found ways to describe this stuff to make sense of it. The number one example I can think of is in charismatic churches or in charismatic circles, one of the spirits you will hear named often is the spirit of Jezebel. I don't know if you've ever heard that before. Yes. So spirit of Jezebel is usually described by people that operate in like demonology as you know, Jezebel, wife of Ahab, and the is a person. Jezebel's never listed in the Bible as a it's not like Beelzebub. No, but in Revelation, the dragon, the woman. Well, no, in one of the letters, in one of the letters to the churches of Revelation, it's I think Jezebel's mentioned. Like there that you've let that that Jezebel, so there's a connection to that. Okay, so it's not completely unbiblical. But usually the Jezebel spirit would be describing it doesn't have to be a woman, but it's like someone who seeks to have a lot of influence in the church, attaches itself to leaders, and specifically maybe weak leaders, like Ahab was a weak man, you know, and then is trying to create division and uh very often immorality, right? But from a position of influence within a church. So like there were some people I've had interactions with that were kind of like I would say, not demon hunters, but like demon lookouts, like everybody's like that's a demon, that's a demon, okay? And have identified, like, oh, that person has a spirit of Jezebel. Right. And they very quickly throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that person, while they might say has a spirit of Jezebel, it's that person is the And it usually means kick that person out of church. Right now, what's funny is originally when I was having a conversation with someone about this, I've kind of this is all new to me. I was like, you're crazy, you know. Um and I'm not saying that okay, I'm not saying that I agree with everything that the person said now, but I but I was like so resistant to it at first, like this is just but then I was reading the story of Jesus and the demon-possessed man or men, depending on which gospel you're reading. Um, but that's not contradictory, because if there's two men, there's also one. Like so uh Legion, yeah. And I and the first question Jesus asks the demon or demons inside of the man is what is your name? And they say Legion for we're many. And I was like, oh, okay, demons have names. Yep. Like Jesus asks, like, who am I talking to? Um what was the name you said for the Canton? Zerg Zergatron or something. Zergatron. Ah, freaking Zergatron. Go to Canton. He cast it. It's not even settled yet. Wait a while. Go to Canton. He's been there this whole time. Um waiting for like that would have been like seven. A lumber mill. A lumber mill spin a press. Oh, I'm gonna their traffic's gonna be horrible in 2024. Right. You know, anyway. Um 1800 years from now. I'm just like just 575 is gonna be a nightmare. I can't wait. Um but but Jesus inner all that is to say, I believe in Jesus. I follow Jesus, and Jesus goes, What's your name? So I go, Oh, Jesus believed in demons, and Jesus recognized that demons have names, that there's that's a thing. Yeah. So even though I'm not saying that there is a spirit named this, a spirit named that, sometimes the demonology stuff gets very Yeah, it's kind of like dream interpretation, gets like that too, where it's like, here's a handbook for what everything means in a dream. And it's like, well, and maybe some of that's helpful. Some of it's super helpful because of people who have dedicated their lives to studying it. Yeah. And I agree with the same thing with some demonology stuff. However, it's all within this big giant asterisk of extra biblical and not for sure. Yes. Maybe interest. It's interesting. And there's a whole bunch of stuff I would call interesting. But I was like, okay, well, I need to let go of this cynicism I have because Jesus believed in demons, interacted with demons, talked about demons, and even recognized that demons have names. So that's a thing. And so, yeah, um, all that to say, I guess, that there's demons. And we've, I mean, I've had encounters with people where I think of one encounter when I was in college where it was just this really weird random person showed up, and when we tried to pray in our group, the dude was like making crazy noises and like just super odd, you know, basically like somewhat similar to what the woman's doing, where it's like distracting everybody from what the point of the thing is. Super disruptive. One of the one of the uh not to cut off your story, I want to hear about it, the uh one of the through lines in both scripture and in a lot of modern day accounts of demon possession is it's not like it's a person who every once in a while like loses their temper. Right. Is it's a person who is no longer in control of their faculties. And very often, um, just like the man, the Legion, naked, like wouldn't keep clothes on. I've heard stories of pastors who encountered someone who like refused to wear clothes, like wouldn't wear clothes, even if they were like freezing cold, like like demons will also often torment the the physical bodies of the people. So like they will like you have the story where the the man brings his son to Jesus and throws himself in fires. Yeah. And it's like what so demons uh tor when when they have total control of a person, which we would call possession, they they are like the they are messed up. Messed up, they can't conform to societal norms, yeah. And it's like they are you know absolutely not in control of themselves. Right. And then you just go, the end of the story was then the guy left, and we all went, What was that about? That seemed not just odd, yeah, but like something a little bit more intense. And I think too, it's helpful to have people in your life. You if you know, I ask you, like, well, so what's wrong with me? Like, whatever. Yeah. Uh it's helpful to have people in your life that can just notice stuff and just be like, hey, you seem to be struggling. Are you that with me? You do that with me. Like you've had lots of times with me where you're like, hey, are you are you Are you okay? And I go, kind of. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And uh I even noticed, you know, I'm not I'm not a demon hunter kind of guy, but I just had a phone call with someone that was just like, hey, just be on the lookout because I noticed this on Sunday. Like let's be praying about it. Yeah. Like beyond that, I'm not gonna be like, you have a demon, that person has a demon, anything like that. I just noticed and felt this sort of way about it. I'm not the perfect person to discern that sort of stuff, but I thought it was worth mentioning. It's worth mentioning. Yeah, and uh if you want to talk about it, I'm here. Yeah, that's really cool. And that's just having people in your life that can do that for you to say, are you struggling on the range of your bad habit is showing or you're developing a bad habit, or to the range of that seemed really out of character for you. Are you okay? Do you feel like you're being attacked, etc.? I think I had a f a friend that recommended, he's like, Yeah, maybe it's a demon. Like, maybe like there's a demon attacking you that you need deliverance from. And I was like, No. Right. Because you imagine being like an evil like person when you have uh dark attacks against you. But then like literally I had that reaction, and then I was like, but yeah, that might be that might totally be the problem. Or sometimes people I think almost they see something, but they almost they just get the prognosis wrong, sure. Maybe but they're right that it's demonic. So I had a person one time and and this person came from a more charismatic church background, so they had a comfort level with speaking in these terms. Okay, so when I say this, they were like, I saw you on stage. Like I was teaching They're like, on Sunday, I just want you to know I saw for a moment this evil presence that like was like clawing into your back and like hanging on to you, and like it affected the way-that was a three-year-old. Yeah. No, but it was like while I was teaching on stage. And they were like, and I think it's pride. And at first it really like messed me up a little bit for a minute because I'm not prideful. Right. And and then as I processed through it, I was like, Well, I don't want to be look, I don't want to be gullible. I also don't want to be cynical. I do believe in the spiritual. That person, by the way, is not someone I would like. I wouldn't bring that person in to consult on things. It wasn't someone who had authority over. Yeah, or or even someone I respected their. I'm not saying I didn't like them. I'm just saying. Many parts, one body, correct. So but I'm sorry. And actually I prayed about it. And uh and I felt like I'm not saying that they saw again, like visions and whatever, but I was like I don't think it was pride, I think it was insecurity. That I was felt very insecure in that day on stage. And it was kind of at a time at our church where a lot of things were transitioning, and I just felt I didn't feel confident. And you know, insecurity and pride are kind of closely related to each other. Yeah, they're kind of like the two sides of the same coin because if you're insecure, it's just self-focus. Well I mean like it's like I can ruin it, which is a prideful thought of saying I can make it go well. Right. Like if it's going poorly, I'm insecure. If it's going well, I'm prideful. It's the same thing. Yeah, it's a connected. It's a self-obsession. And so I I like prayed about that and felt found that was helpful. Does that make sense? So even though the way that person came at it was very like, you have an evil spirit of pride on you. After I got over my initial like, shut up. Yeah, you know, uh no, I thought through it more and I was like, well, hold on. I want to I don't want to just want to wholesale Lord, do I like do that whole thing. I was like, no, I I do think I have I'm really battling some insecurity right now. Right. And so And that can come from a spiritual attack. Correct. And that's a totally valid. Actually, I've been so grateful for you lately lately. Not that I normally am not, but specifically in this area, I do think that in my life I've had moments where I feel like I'm more I'm just more attuned to spiritual realities a little bit. Like I'm more perceptive to it. I'm just, I don't know, it's and then other times in life where like that's not just been like I've gotten more and more and more. It's more been like and then other times for another season, I might just be distracted. I might be, you know, I'm in a season right now where my kid, my my schedule right now is insane. And not even to a point where I think we're doing anything wrong. It's just we have four children. And they're all like coming of an age and a different like our oldest won't be able to drive for another year. And when he can drive, that will just like, oh my gosh. You know, and this is a small stage of life that will be over faster than I can probably imagine. But we're crazy right now. So my mind, I've been praying a lot in the car of like, I just don't feel like I'm as spiritually minded lately as I want to be, Lord, because I'm just well, we gotta go to basketball, we gotta go. It's hard to be in the rat race and then also just be like, What is this? Yeah, you know what I mean? I can't walk out in a field and because men go, where are you? Like, why can't um but you have, I think lately have really been in a cool place with that, and it's been really helpful to me, even in conversations we've had where I'll be talking about it and you'll be like, I think it's a spiritual thing. Yeah, and I go, Oh, yeah, and I don't want to make everything a spiritual thing, but because that's a temptation too, but to just recognize that this this rule of thumb for me has been super helpful when uh people are acting extremely out of character almost for no reason. It's not that you can always blame it on, it might just be stress, it might be you know circumstances or whatever, but if it they're acting out of character and for no reason, I kind of go like, okay, God, what are you up to? Or what is Satan up to? Like, you're either inspiring people to do something that's out of the box, or Satan's inspiring people to do something that's out of the box, and you gotta just be a little bit aware of that. And honestly, you know, I shared a little bit about it, but God's been confronting me with a lot of that stuff in terms of ignoring it for a long time, and we've talked about it a lot. And so, in some ways, I have no option but to be at least a little bit more tuned into that because he's but I'm saying it's been helpful for me because I've actually needed those reminders. Yeah, so I'm grateful for it. Yeah, yeah. I think what what I would say to anyone is um, do you believe in God? Okay, like if you believe in God, you believe in the spiritual. Yeah. Do you believe in only good spiritual, or do you believe that there is evil spiritual as well? And I I think that's fairly evident that there's evil spiritual, and if you believe in Jesus, he definitely believed that because he interacted with it, talked about it. And then when it comes to you kind of saying, Okay, I believe in Satan, do you believe in only Satan? Or do you believe that there's other forces? I believe there's others. Okay, do you believe there's dum-dums that are like running around poking people with spiritual pitchforks, just messing with stuff, you know, like little little brothers? Yeah. Or uh or do you believe that they're they're organized and they're maniacal and they have and they're they're trying really hard to get in the way of what God is is doing. And I would definitely believe that. And that's what scripture I think describes. That said, you put it this way earlier, not this exact way, but don't overestimate. Right. Don't overestimate. They're not God. Don't give them more power than they have because that's the big mistake we've been making this whole time. Yes. Don't give them more power than they have, but also don't uh don't forget that they're there. And if you ever do, and kind of I had a guy call me once we'll wrap up with this, where he uh he was like, I think I'm dealing with a demon. And I was like, Well, well, there's this one story in the Bible of like thousands of demons inside of one guy, and they fall face down in fear of Jesus. Right. Jesus just has to show up and they're like, Don't destroy us. So if you're dealing with a demon, greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world, right? That's just a Bible verse. Like God is better. Luke 1017. Luke 1017, God is bigger and greater than Satan could ever hope to be. They're not equal. So don't underestimate, don't overestimate, don't underestimate. Be mindful and ask the Lord to open your eyes to what's going on. And uh if you have a kind of Catholic friend named Fred, give them a call if you ever want to call it. I just I think we should close with Luke 10.17. Okay, what is it? Uh let's see, let's see. The 72 returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us. What? Are you serious? Yeah, seriously. And you've just been throwing Luke 1017 out as a random. I thought it was the Satan falls like lightning verse. Oh, you did? You did. Okay. I thought you just made up a random. Oh, look. 108 1018. And he said to them, I saw Satan fall like I was one verse off. I'm like, wow. No, I broke it before you worship God only. Oh, I'm so sorry. I was tempted. That's a revelation joke. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks for listening. And if you have more questions, email Justin McTear at his answer. That's my email address. Thank you. All right.