SPEAKER_00 0:03

You wanted to discuss uh some things that might not have made it into the message from Sunday. Correct, yeah. Uh we went over the entirety of Matthew 24, which is talking about the end. The end of the world. Kind of. It's talking about the end of Jerusalem. Right. Uh as they knew it, the end of the temple, the end of the world, the return of Jesus, the day of the Lord, the coming of the new whatever titles you want to give. So, yeah, I talked about that on Sunday, and uh ambitious at least in terms of amount to cover plus challenge level, I guess. There's a comedian that talks about writing a happy birthday sign and how everyone always starts with like a big H and a big A, and then it slows. Is that Dimitri Martin? It's either Dimitri Martin or John Mullaney. I can't remember. Big giant H. Yeah. It might not be super appropriate, but he's not sure that. And then you get to the end of the word and you're like cramming in all of the like. It's so true. Yeah. We're in a little bit of that season of like we we got to the end of the Matthew series and we're like, we've got a lot left. We do not a lot of the year left. And so each message is kind of contained uh a very large portion of scripture. I feel like it's had the same disclaimer the last few weeks. All right, guys, we got a lot to cover today. So buckle up uninterrupted minutes of reading of reading scripture. I've read entire chapters, but but all that to say, um, yeah, like when we plan out a year or a theme, we we're not flying by the seat of our pants, but we don't have this perfectly mapped out master plan of 12 months later. We're not we don't operate like that. Um and I don't really want to operate like that, to be honest with you, because I don't want to be beholden to what I decided to do eight months ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah, last year was the perfect balance of you all you knew was that each series had to be three to four messages per year.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

We went the entire story of the Bible in a year. I think it was like 14 or something series that we made, and Matt had to make all those graphics, and they did a great job.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

And so you didn't know exactly what every message was gonna be. But I knew what my averages had to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

So I was like, well, if this series is four weeks long, next one has to be three. There's like three point four. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

And on this one, it's like, okay, now we got a lot to few weeks left. Which is good because we probably wouldn't have wanted uh an extended time, an extended period of time like in these passages, anyways, because like we're saying, every week it's like a little bit intense.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Um Yeah, the way Matt Matthew's sort of structured, right? It makes sense because it's all heading to the the cross and the crucifixion, it just gets more intense as you go. And so the last I feel like I've had I literally feel like the last month of messages, well, even a couple weeks back, I was looking at maybe having a week off because I had a lot of stuff going on, and I sent it to you, like, hey, do you want to take this? I was just looking at dates in my calendar, and you're like, Are you sure? I was like, I'm fine, I'm fine preaching on it, but I don't know if you want me preaching on it. Well, it's not yeah, but it's like a heavier topic. And then I was like, I'll do the next week. You're like, Are you sure? 'Cause it's it was the it was like the reconciling with Christians, yeah, and then divorce, and you know, that just had bigger impact. Um but either way, you would have done great. You're really good at that stuff. So uh yeah, Matthew 24. We talked on Matthew 24, which is this long, uninterrupted um conversation Jesus has about it starts by him telling the disciples that the temple will be destroyed one day. And then it they ask the question, well, when will these things when is this gonna happen? And what are the signs of your coming back? And which are two separate questions, and really you could actually say it's three questions because the third question. What's the part I was like waiting for in the message that I don't think? I probably didn't get there. So the if you wanted to be honest, it's like the three questions would be when will this happen? And then what are the signs of the end of the age and your return? Assuming that those are the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

So end of age and then return could be separate.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

They they could be, but it depends on your interpretation. Your interpretation. So um, but I generally look at it as two qu two main questions like when is this gonna happen? Like the temple thing, and when are you coming back? And they definitely the disciples thought it was all one thing, I think. That's fairly safe to say. So we talked about on Sunday, kind of did the overview, um, but there were just aspects that we couldn't just get to with 45 minutes of time.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Right. And what what parts do you feel like didn't go, not that it didn't go well, but you were like, I wish I could have covered that better.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

I think there's some details in Matthew 24, um, some phrases that like day of uh like desolation abomination, abomination of desolation. Yeah, what is that? And probably the sun will be darkened and the like all that kind of stuff. There's some of that language. What about you though? You're you were in there and you're a you're a Bible scholar. I don't think so. You are too. Uh I yeah, I think we were talking about the different threads where you're like he's answering one question. There's like multiple questions that are being answered simultaneously. I think parsing that out a little bit more, um, having more time to like really address those, I think would have been super helpful when he is talking about the temple, but then but we don't always know exactly. Yeah, right. It doesn't he doesn't lay it out like, all right, well, question one here. Yes, it all sort of blends together. And I think maybe the biggest thing would be like, what do we do if the prophecy isn't fulfilled and we live and die without seeing it fulfilled? Yeah, was that scripture even worth it to have? Yeah, that's the thing with like revelation and all end times scripture, something that I we taught in Revelation last year, and I think we actually gave it like four weeks. It was one of the longer series we had. It was on the long end of our 3.4 week average. Um and something I was really impacted by preparing for that last year, because this is in the same vein, right? Matthew 24 is a it's a prophetic, it's viewed in that sort of prophetic eschatological eschatology, you know, and time stuff. Yep. Uh and one of the things that I was really impressed with studying for Revelation last year and going through that was the question that we always ask is when. That's not the qu Jesus never really brings that up. So it's funny because every time the when thing happens in the in the it's always the disciples asking Jesus. He never on his own decides to be like, hey, let's pause for a minute, guys. I want to give you kind of a heads up of when some things are gonna happen. It's always in response. When is this going to happen? When will this take place?

SPEAKER_01 6:08

You don't think Jesus was smart enough to bake it into his answer that there's like if you make each word a number and then like add it all up, but then subscribe.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

And one day, yeah, I don't know. Uh Matthew 24, 2024. Oh no, yeah, right. And there's been plenty of that in the world. But yeah, like we're the ones that want to know when. Right. When is always the question that we are like the quickest to ask, but that doesn't seem to be the question that God is the most interested in preparing us for. Right. So I I that was my big shift last year with Revelation was stop I seeing Revelation not so much as about when. Is that really the question Revelation's trying to answer? Or is Revelation trying to answer the question of who and like why? Right. Um, sorry, I should have let's all silence our phones. Um so you know, who and why, and like Revelation is about Jesus. It is the clue, it's the most full revelation, revealing we have of who Jesus really is.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Why the when question is so wrong? Because it's a very selfish question.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

It's either like I want I want to be part of it or I don't want to be part of it. Right. You're the main character. And if when is the only thing we care about, well then it like what you said a minute ago, well, then if I'm not living in that time, it doesn't matter. Just put that right. But if you there's there's takeaways and there's really deep truths that we find in these, even if we're not living those times. And so I mentioned the message Martin Luther, you know, who lived in the mid-1500s, and when and Martin Luther, we actually have his sermons um, because they're fairly widely distributed and and whatnot. Uh people kept his stuff because he was so uh influential. We have messages Martin Luther gave on Matthew 24. We have the entire sermon. You can pull up a podcast and listen to it. And he definitely has the not him saying it, but someone else reading it. No, it's him. No, it's just yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can listen to his words in the voice of someone. Just sounded like pull up a pop Martin Luther podcast. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Um, but we have his his words narrated by someone else. And he definitely gives you the feeling that, hey guys, we're living in the end times. Not in a panicked, sort of uh weird buy my book and build a bunker way, but in a let's all take stock of our lives and and take this stuff seriously. And because what things going on in Martin Luther's life, it was like I talked about in the message, you had the Ottoman Empire right at the doorstep of Germany. That's crazy. It was very violent. You had the plague, you had the Pope persecuting uh reformed Christians because they were, for a lot of different reasons, they were translating the Bible and unauthorized translations and all this kind of stuff. So from Martin Luther's perspective, it's like uh in his mind, corrupt leadership in the church that is way off what it should be, uh, much like what what G Jesus dealt with. He probably saw a lot of parallels there, like tables need to be turned, and he was a table turner for sure. You have pestilence and plague, and you also have like army advancing for he's like, hey. And I don't think he was wrong to do that.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Yeah, and I think that gets to the the question of can some prophecies in the Bible be like fulfilled by historical events that have happened since, but still have an unclosed loop for Christians to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

There is an entire there is an entire view, uh okay, so I'm not I didn't prepare for this to this degree. Um there's a bunch of primary views of for example, Revelation would be the easiest one to use. Um there's like premillennial, yeah, post-millennial. One view is a historical view, which is that the things that Revelation, and I think you could lump in the other end times scriptures, prophetic scriptures, that these are actually like view a timeline of history, these are gonna be fulfilled slowly throughout history in different moments. Progressively progressively. The problem with that though is that like you mentioned, there seems to be somewhat of a well if you're gonna read, for example, some of the some of the prophecies about uh pestilence and and plague and like people getting sick, right? Well, was that the is that the bubonic plague? That would have seemed like it well, what about other major plagues that have happened? Which are those? So it does seem to not just be like, well, that was clearly that one moment, and now we're moving on to the next thing. Right. So there's some interesting views there.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Well, and and I think too, maybe maybe God's just good to give us stuff that will apply for all of us all the time.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

And like at the end, like for those Christians living in the true end times, like when you see it all coming together, there just genuinely will be like a puzzle pieces falling into a place effect. Yeah, and Jesus used a really good illustration in Matthew 24. He talked about birth pains. And so these things that are gonna happen, he mentioned like there's gonna be wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and all kinds of stuff. Those are the birth pains. And birth pains are part of the birth. Like the baby, like that's gonna happen, and the birth pains are part of that process. And so, yeah, I think there might be events in history and events that happen currently that are it are they are those those birth pains that make us go, ooh, they make they make you pay attention. Like I've been at four births.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Wait, you didn't it wasn't like Megan's like, I'm going into labor, and you ran away.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

No, you were like, No, but like every time you go, ooh, fill okay, and you it makes you pay attention, it makes you take things seriously, like, oh, it's we gotta get ready. Um so I think that even though I said Martin Luther wasn't wrong, meaning he didn't say we're definitely living in the end times, this is it. He didn't say that. He didn't calculate a year that it was gonna happen and then recalculate it when it's but he was able to say, guys, look around, pay attention to what's going on around the world. These are interesting times, and they actually are really interesting times if you study you know his his lifespan. Um we should be really focused on the Lord and mindful of of God because uh history's heading somewhere and this stuff is scary, but uh we have a God who is ultimately in control of of where history's going, and it's we should be prepared for his plan and his will.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Yeah, and he is bringing it to an end. I we were t chatting about this with with Daniel uh chapter eight, where it's like the ultimate end as God brings things to an end isn't like into darkness, but it's into light. Right. And so to just have that firmly planted in your mind of like I know that no matter where we're going, it is toward it is toward Jesus, and the fullness of Jesus is the end of the world.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

You know what I mean? Like that yeah, I very much grew up in a time that was like uh man, I I really I should probably just use the coaster for my drink. Yeah, it's right there. But it's I feel bad because my drink is like a it's a branded thing. Does that matter? No. Are we taking brand deals on this? No. Do you have any reason to believe that sparkling ice? Is that what it's called? Sparkling. I think it's probably owned by like Coca-Cola or somebody. Like they're all you grew up in a time. Talking rain beverage company. Uh yeah. Weird. Get that off the table. All right. Um I grew up in a time where it was like, and maybe it's always been like this, but uh, there's a lot of, I don't know, it's a lot of media left behind books. It's like TBN, it's like, I really hope I'm not alive during end times influencers. End times influencers. And one of the takeaways is like, man, I hope it's not during my lifetime. Yeah, get them bucket of slop so that you can have a lot of people. That would be like the coolest time to be alive. Like Jesus returns to that. So um, yeah, so Matthew 24 is dealing with all that, and I I think that the main takeaways from the message were right. The main takeaways being we're supposed to Jesus is telling us this. It's clear that his intention is not to give everyone a clearly mapped out. Right. First this, then this, then that. That's not if that was his intention, he would have done it differently. But he is saying, pay attention. But like I said, the message, don't be obsessed, don't be fearful, don't freak out. Um, a lot of Matthew 24, I do believe, is absolutely about the fall of Jerusalem. So some of that stuff, especially the stuff that's more in the the stuff that would make us maybe feel afraid, like run for the hills, don't even go back and get your coat, pray that you're not pregnant and you don't have a pregnant wife at the time, because man, is it gonna be hard for those, those that's about the destruction of the temple. That was the first question he's answering. And then the other stuff that's about, you know, just the stuff that's about like the birth pains and these things must take place.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

What do you think about the the one will be gathering or two will be gathering and one will be left?

SPEAKER_00 14:17

And what do you think about that? Is that like your your rapture proof of the thing? That's where it's that's where it's uh typically it's connected, you know, at least modern times, to the idea of a sudden disappearance of the poof. The poof. The Jesus followers get poofed out. Um but you could also just say that it's poetic language. You could, I'm not saying this is true. So every time we talk about this, I'm like people are so passionate about their views of this that it's almost like to say, hey, it could be or it could be. Just be open-minded. It it could be. Like it could also be poetic language that is meant to describe the suddenness of his return.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Yeah, it's gonna be like I think of it like uh at the end of Fellowship of the Ring when they're the orcs are attacking uh Frodo and the crew and they're all about to like split off or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Uh and Boromir picks like so many air. Yeah, Boromir blows his horn and uh Aragorn's like the horn of Gondor, and they all just like instantly go. Yeah, yeah. Like that's kind of the image that I get. Like you hear the trumpet and as a Jesus follower, you just you're aware like this is the time and you you're gone. Yeah. So but to your point, some of that stuff is definitely talking about not that's not what happened at the destruction of Jerusalem. People didn't just be like, oh, run, you know, like go there. Yeah. So anyway. So how do you want to break this apart? What do you want to do? What details do you want to go into?

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Abomination of Desolation is kind of an unclosed loop for me because I'm teaching through Daniel with our college students, and so that phrase appears in Daniel. Um, I kind of want to know what it would mean to Dan in Daniel versus what it means to Jesus and what it should mean to us. Is that something that we still hold on to? Um, let the reader pay attention or let the reader understand is what we get in Matthew 24 right after that phrase. I would like to understand that.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Um abomination of desolation, and then uh I think just in general, like the wisdom.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

I think what you said was great of just paying attention and kind of the takeaways I think could just be re-reiter reiterated.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

The takeaways, and we'll go through that again. The main takeaways were pay attention, don't get distracted. And Jesus says that. Don't there's gonna be wars and rumors of wars. That's that's not nothing, but it's not everything. So just birth pains, don't freak out about that stuff. So pay attention, don't get distracted. And I think really be faithful and be ready. Be faithful, do the things that God has told us to do. What has Jesus told us to do in the meantime, regardless of whether we're living in the end or at some point our end, right? Uh be faithful and and be ready, like live life not so consumed with what's happening in this world that like you kind of we talked on the phone today and on the way in. Like, if if Jesus shows up, oh but I was I'm in the middle of something. Yeah. I really wanted to finish. I don't I don't know how that movie ends. Right. Like to a certain degree, you can become so consumed with the world that we live in that you know, when the time comes, you're almost you're not, you're not ready. It's not, it hasn't even been on your you're so focused on this world. Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

You should have the right kind of unfinished business. The unfinished business of like, I was kingdom building with my family, with my like loved ones, with the people around me. But my my settled business is like between me and the Lord, like we're on the same page.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Like I understand what I'm here for, I understand you know, the things that I need to confess, the things that I need to reconcile with, whether it's between brothers and sisters, but my unfinished business isn't like, well, man, I really wanted to know what John Wick 5 was gonna be, or whatever, whatever it is, like to actually have um the sober-minded kingdom looking that you are living life with your priorities, kingdom things. Right. Even if you don't work at it, it's easy to say that working at a church, but even if you like you work at your job, well, yeah, I work a job to provide for my family, but I'm doing this. I'm trying to be a godly, right, godly husband, a godly wife, a godly mother, father. I'm trying to grow in my relationship with the Lord. And so when he comes back, he's like, sweet. Yeah, that that's this is the culmination of what I was doing. Boom, it's done. Versus, oh, I haven't been given any mind to this at all. I'm I'm I gotta shift gears to get there.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

You know, it's the parable where Jesus tells of the the the field that's being built with the barns and like the silos or whatever. I always imagine silos, I know it might be something different. And then it's like, and then all the guy dies like that that evening or I have so much now I I don't have to do anything else. Well, that wasn't that wasn't the point of life. Yeah. Uh no, that's good. So to have that that stuff, I think, settled is good. Um abomination of desolation.

SPEAKER_00 18:49

Okay, so uh that comes from a prophecy in Daniel, abomination of desolation, and it is related to the temple, okay, and obviously Daniel's way before Jesus. Right. Well, how much earlier before Jesus would Daniel have been? At least 500 years ago. Yeah, something like that. I was gonna say 800. Something in that range. And so Daniel is writing about prophetic things, but most people would argue that, and I and again, this is where is it all is it is it a certain time, or is it a certain time and a time after? Um a lot of Daniel's prophecies tend to get lumped into the fall of of Babylon, right? The fall of the Babylonian Empire and the coming of the Messiah, not as much end of the world type stuff. The fall of Babylon, that's what it's uh fallen, fallen is Babylon. That's Revelation. That's Revelation, right? But Revelation is when when It's Babylon as a type, not Babylon. When Revelation was written existing, right. Babylon had already fallen. Right. And so it's like language. It's Rome is the new Babylon. Correct. Babylon is a symbol at that point. So that's where it gets tough. And and all and even on that note, uh everyone should know prophetic stuff in the Bible is almost always incredibly it's filled with poetic, visually rich phrases. So even like the sun being darkened and all that kind of stuff. Let's let's look at that. I want to abomination of desolation. Yeah, yeah. Like some people like they they'll read that literally, like the sun will go dark and the stars will fall from the sky moon. Blood moon, like all that stuff. Yeah, gosh. Sorry. Um, no. I'm like just triggering Facebook comments right now. I know people are so mad. The uh Well, like we use language in our day today, like these are really dark days. We'll say that. This is a today was a dark day. Um you know, something horrible happens, a war starts. We use that kind of language, and when we use it, we don't we don't expect anyone to be like, no, this was sun was normal level of brightness today, man. Like, well, no, no, I was saying well, that happens a lot too in in scripture, especially in a world, by the way, which was so obsessed with the stars, so obsessed with the skies, you know, they looked up a lot more than we do. You know, we look up and it's like ah, the sun. We don't see the stars like they saw them because we have all the light pollution.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

We can't even see the stars.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

We can't even see them. But but they their cultures were extremely focused on stars and signs in the sky. So it says like stars will fall from the sky and all that. Okay, so Abomination of Desolation. Let's put a chapter marker there. Do you want to find the original Abomination of Desolation? I would like to, but I don't know. No, no, no, no. We're good.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

We're quick, you can Google it. I'll say on on poetry while you're looking that up is poetry I think now has the connotation of it's like a synonym for saying not true, like made up. Right. Is like that, and I just don't believe that. Uh we have such a uh news documentary kind of focused version of the truth when Jesus can say something that is poetic in its style and has hyperbole and is over the top.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

But it can also be uh literally, spiritually true. And so I think having that comfort with the Bible of going like, hey, even if it's using language that we wouldn't be comfortable using or we wouldn't describe as true in that sense, we can still embrace that the biblical authors were comfortable and completely understood that as their way of expressing truth is by using poetic language. It's like, I'm gonna bake this image into your mind so it's easier to memorize, it's gonna be more uh rich, it's gonna have uh layers to like unfurl rather than it just being like, well, in A D. Because it hits you hits you on more than just a logical level, it hits you at an emotional visceral level, and you'll remember it better. I agree completely. Look up for me real quick. I know this is a look up uh Luke 21, 20 through 21. Just have a have a place there. Um, Luke 21, 20 through 21. So abomination of desolation is a phrase that appears in the book of Daniel. Uh Daniel was, for context, if you're not listening to this, watching this, whatever you don't know, Daniel was a Jewish man who, along with several of his his uh friends, lived at the time that Babylon conquered uh Israel at that point in time, and he was taken into captivity and raised there, and then became a very influential figure in the uh Babylonian government. Yeah, he's like a right-hand man to good old King Nebuchadnezzar. Many kings and other people after that. Yeah. So um, yeah, and obviously pagan, not followers of God, interesting stuff. And so he wrote about at a future time, um, and this was interesting because when he's writing this, the temple in Jerusalem has been destroyed. Right. When Daniel is writing. This isn't the rebuilt temple. No, so so he talks about how like in Daniel 9 27, he writes that a prince will destroy the temple and sacrifices in Jerusalem. In Daniel 11 31, an abomination will be set up in the temple and the regular burnt offering will be stopped. Um, it's interesting for Daniel to write about this because at his time, like that stuff is that's not flourishing. Israel's been conquered and the temple hasn't been rebuilt yet. Right. You know, so he's obviously writing about a future temple and whatever. Um so Jesus in Matthew 24 says he refers to the abomination of desolation as a as a future thing, and he's like, When you see this, flee. What do you have in Luke 21, 20 through 21?

SPEAKER_01 24:31

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Right. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are the days of vengeance to fulfill all that has that is written. Right. And it goes on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Um when was Luke written? Let me look this up real quick.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

When was Luke written?

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Uh because I'm very much in the camp that the uh Gospel of Matthew was written before the temple was destroyed. I think that's pretty clear. Um and there's no like they didn't put a stamp on it that said like the year, you know. Most scholars I would say would think that Luke was lit written after, between eighty to ninety AD. Um so it's interesting about that is that Luke writing potentially after Matthew.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Well, yeah, well, he writes Acts 2 all as one thing. That's what I'm saying. It's like way after the things.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

He's compiled all this stuff. And and so Luke writing after, he connects like the abomination of desolation with the Roman that surround that surrounded. He's writing it from the other, oh that's that was that, right? And so So here's the the connection that's interesting. Um the second the the there was a period of time before Jesus where Israel had independence again. There was a Persian ruler uh named Antiochus, and Antiochus was in charge of modern day Israel and ancient Israel, all Israel. I've heard it pronounced Antiochus. Antiochus, I'm sure. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. So Antiochus, Antiochus the second tomato tomato. Is he the same? Yeah, he he was a Persian. It's funny because he has a Greek name, but but that you're living in a time period where like Alexander the Great and the Greek expansion and the Persians, they're all like right interconnected with each other in Rome as well. And so he ends up um doing this horrible thing where he he he w he hated Judaism. He wanted to stamp it out, he wanted to completely get rid of Judaism, he saw it as a as a terrible thing, and he wanted to replace it with the the worship of the Greek gods. Um so he ends up taking over the temple, and this would be the not Herod's temple. Um the temple was rebuilt by um Ezra, comes back and builds the temple, right? Ezra, that that comes Ezra and Zerubbabel. Yeah, rebuild the temple. But then Herod the Great comes along later at the time of Jesus, essentially, right before Jesus, and Herod the Great like does a big renovation of the temple. He superduces the temple. He makes the temple what the temple should be. Yeah. Um so but they had a temple, and so Antiochus or Antichrist. Antiochus? He comes in, takes over the temple, kills a bunch of priests, makes pagan sacrifices. He like slaughters pigs, slaughters pigs, which was completely and the Jewish people didn't do pigs. So he slaughters pigs on the altar as sacrifices to Zeus, and some accounts even have him setting up brothels in the temple courts. So he just desecrates the temple. And it's like it's like an absolute cultural oh my like a cultural statement on purpose. It's not like he was unaware of this stuff. This was like I'm intentional I'm intentionally vandalizing everything that you hold sacred. 100%. Yeah. And so pre-Jesus. Just imagine like someone making fun of Taylor Swift in today's world. Horrible in the riots that would- You know, but I'm saying like actually I was kind of making that joke is we don't hold anything sacred in our culture. Because I was thinking like if someone did that to the White House or Mount Rushmore, and I was like, actually, I think destroyed Mount Rushmore, I feel like that'd be like offensive. It would be, but it might be the people who did it were Americans too. We're a weird country. You're right. We don't have the same like unity. I'm trying to think of anything. I don't know. I don't know, yeah. So uh anywho, he does this, it leads to a rebellion. The Jewish people rise up, and there's a group called the Maccabees, and they lead that and they actually kick Antiochus out. They make an alliance with Rome. Rome hasn't risen to the power of Rome yet, um, but it's powerful, and they make an alliance with Rome. The Persians kind of back off, and there's about a hundred and hundred and fifty-year period of time where they oh, it's about a hundred-year period of time where they actually have independence. And then Rome grows in power and they kind of dip, and Rome ends up just kind of annexing.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

And this is all intertestamental. This is yeah, this is between Old and New Testament. This is about a hundred and fifty years before Hanukkah come about, where it's like, why do Jews celebrate Hanukkah?

SPEAKER_00 29:01

That comes from that period. Comes from this this period. So m many scholars would say that, yeah, Daniel, but this way, at the time of Jesus, they would have interpreted Daniel's teachings on the abomination of desolation as what Antiochus did. Correct. That is fulfilled prophecy. Gotcha. They would say this is prophecy that has been fulfilled all the time. They would have pointed at the abomination of desolation, pigs in the on the altar. That's when that happened, and that's what led to that. Okay, so Jesus then brings it up as like a future thing. Right. And we know from history, so in 66 A.D., that's when this whole war between Israel and and Rome happened, the Jewish revolt is what it's called, the Jewish wars. And so one of the things that started it was there was all this tension with Rome and Israel, right? And taxes and all these kinds of things. Well, a Roman governor in 66 A.D. seized treasury from the temple, treasury. Like basically came and confiscated money that was extra taxing you, but I'm just taking it from God's money. And that's sacred to them, right? And it's whoa, this is like and this has all kinds of this fits in the same category as the Antiochus, Antiochus, whatever you want to say his name is, as that guy, because you have a foreign leader, a foreign prince, ruler, um, desecrating the the temple in some way. And then that led the the zealots and some others to do a try try Maccabe Revolution round two. They actually defeat a Roman garrison, and Rome gets word of this, obviously, and decides we're we're not doing this at all. Three years later, 69 AD, Rome stomps them out. Yeah, that takes like three years. Right. That's the crazy thing about it, is that was a three-year-old. You've got to send letters and messengers. Well, no, they they arrive at Jerusalem in 69 A.D. It's crazy. And Jerusalem basically, Jerusalem's prepared for for this to a certain degree. They have food supplies and all that. There's actually all kinds of interesting stuff where the zealots burned uh years worth of food supplies because they didn't think the people inside Jerusalem were willing to fight enough, and they were just kind of like, well, we're we got lots of time. And so they actually like sabotage themselves to motivate the people. It was a horrible thing. So it could be very much, and this is what I think the reason I brought up Luke, because Luke is read is adding the Roman, he says, when you see the Romans, right, okay, and it's not that he's rewriting the words of Jesus, it's that he's interpreting what Jesus was talking about when Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation clearly fill that fulfilled in that moment. Yeah, that he was talking about the Romans. When you when you see the Roman army with their their symbols of pagan gods, and and when they're that's just he's like, hey, hyperlink, Antiochus, Antiochus, like that it's happening again. Yeah, and Jesus told us it was gonna happen. Yeah. And so Luke kind of adds to that. Or it may be too that Jesus said both, and he talked about this, and because these guys are writing down uh you know, they're they're probably not able to write every word that Jesus says.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

They are John says if the uh books had been written about everything that Jesus said and did, there wouldn't be enough libraries in the world to contain it.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Which is why it's so beautiful, by the way, quick aside, that we have four gospel accounts. It's not that they disagree with each other. There are moments where it seems like, well, that one's a little different than that one. But it's like it's like if you had four eyewitnesses to an event and you got to interview them all, and through that all you get a more complete picture, right? They don't, it's not that, well, that one some people are like, well, this one says a slightly different thing. Well, no, put them all together and you get the complete story. So anyway, um, I think the abomination of desolation is either the Roman army, just just the Roman army, or the Roman army specifically with things that they were doing in the temple, taking the taxes, and it was a it was something Jesus used, it was a figure of speech that Jesus used that would have been extremely clear to the Jewish people as related to a foreign power uh taking over the the temple. And Jesus is saying when you see that, when you see the abomination of desolation, when you see this, and all that that would have hyperlinked in their minds, foreign power, temple being mistreated, all this kind of stuff, go. Yeah. That that's not a I don't think that that is about a not have happen something that hasn't happened yet. Right. But it some people do. Some people see that as future.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

I think what uh John gets so right in Revelation, and what's so cool about Revelation is that John has all of this working knowledge in his brain from Daniel to Jesus to historical events, he outlived everybody else, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:33

And he's like weaving it all together by the power of the Holy Spirit to uh not reinterpret, but just like show these beasts and different things in new lights. So it's like it's like working those images all together into the final culmination. Yep. And so it can be it can be that like fully historical, already not yet. What's the is that the phrase? Already not yet, right? Yeah. Um that's a Mike Winger phrase, I think. I don't think it's a Mike Winger phrase. Well, he uses that in his stuff. Like I think he's probably like a fancier guy, like a more a different guy. Because I've heard a bunch of people say that. But you're saying Mike Winger reads Mike Winger, if you ever He's a YouTuber. Look, he's a YouTuber, does some interesting stuff. You think Mike Winger researches and reads other people? Yeah, I think so. And uses their language? I think so. What? Yeah, so yeah, no, absolutely. So that that would be my interpretation of the abomination of desolation, and that's from the research that I've done. But at the same time, there are others who think that that is a future thing that hasn't happened yet, and they're gonna reference uh that the temple will be rebuilt one day, and when the temple's rebuilt and worship at the temple resumes, then there will be an abomination of desolation. This is about like the Antichrist. And so I don't know. But for me, for me, this is the uh I do think and the reason I think that is not just because I it's because the question the disciples ask is, hey, when will this happen? Meaning, when will the temple be destroyed? That's what Jesus talked about. That's what started this whole conversation. Jesus, like, not one stone will be left on top of another. When will this take place? And that's he's answer he's definitely answering that question. And then as far as their other question of what will be the signs of the coming and when are you gonna come back, that's a little bit more wrapped in mystery.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

So what it that's I guess the the word mystery, that's the that's the question I guess that I have is what do biblical mysteries uh have that's different than a Scooby-Doo mystery? Because I always kind of compare it, like Scooby-Doo mysteries, yeah, they resolve.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Like Mr. Withers from the amusement park. 15 minutes later, you know, and it's someone you met earlier, all that.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

I think for you, um, with those takeaways about paying attention, it's like, what does that actually practically look like? Because I I know we we processed through like those are the takeaways from the stuff that's not resolved, but what what does paying attention actually mean? Like, do I just go, huh, and then move on with my life?

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Or well, paying attention to me means that you live life always aware of the greater truth, like the greater story. Right. Okay, so like right now we're in the middle of the, as we're recording this, we're in the middle of the 2024 presidential. We're really not in the middle, we're almost at the end.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

It's a couple weeks from it's not even a couple weeks next week. Next week is election day? I think so. Next week.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Who are you voting for? So we're we're here in the we're at the apex of the presidential election of 2024. And that's an important thing. I think this is an important election. I think that the last election was an important election. And most elections have been important elections because when you elect a person, they they're gonna determine foreign policy. We have multiple wars happening in the world right now, and whoever the president of America is is gonna have some some say in how that goes with Ukraine and Russia and with Israel and all that kind of thing. That's going to play into that stuff, right? So these are very important times. Um, you know, if you're the president of Lithuania, I don't know if they have a president, it's not as big of a a thing. You know what I mean? Like you're not affecting the world. So it's important, but it's not the main story. Right. So as a believer, I am invested in this world. I care about who the president is, I care about the policies of our country, I care about what's happening right now, and I want to do my part by voting or having conversations with people. That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Yeah, we we talked about Daniel a little bit in relation to that. Like Daniel's living in Babylon, which is like the polar opposite. This is like everything that you hate about the world or the culture or whatever it might be, like Daniel was living in like a times 10 version of that.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah, foreign power uh destroys your country and completely obliterates you and has different values, kidnaps you kidnaps you, and then you're like, I'm pretty close with the guy in charge of all that, and I'm working really hard to make sure. I want him to succeed. I want him to succeed. Yeah, I'm doing my best. If you're his doctor and I'm not poisoning him and sabotaging him, I'm like, oh, I really I noticed when Nebuchadnezzar gets that dream, he goes, uh oh king, should this dream please not be about you because it's foretelling destruction?

SPEAKER_01 38:09

He's like, like any is a gen is from a genuine spot. Yeah, no. So Daniel's is such an interesting thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

And so it's it's like that, where it's like being kingdom, kingdom-minded and focused on the Lord in the midst of even the worldly stuff that's going on around you. Yeah, but also like Daniel, being very mindful, and Daniel having visions and dreams and things like that, but being very mindful that this is a small thing compared to the big thing that I'm part of. And as a believer, I'm not going to get wrapped up into everything happening right here and now to the point where it is what dictates my peace, it is what dictates my entire focus. Um I have I'm part of a bigger story. Right. And I need to pay attention to that because that's the story that I want to contribute to more. That's the story that is ultimately going to matter. Like even I talked about Martin Luther, the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire was a huge deal. You know, it started in Turkey and uh like a huge deal. We don't think about the Ottoman Empire today. Same with Rome. Rome. I mean, gosh, Rome, we're like, oh, I want to go see the Coliseum. You know, it's a cool, it's an old ruined building. Right. Isn't it neat that they built this? Yeah, and you're talking about them coming with their flags. I was just thinking about Pax Romana, like peace, Rome, like like they didn't they can't offer everlasting peace. Like no temporary kingdom can. No, and Rome was, I mean, to this day, there's never been a nation state, empire, whatever word you want to use, as powerful and long-lasting as Rome. Right. Rome had about a thousand years.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah, I was gonna say, how long did the British Empire last?

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Not as long. Yeah. Uh I mean several centuries and whatnot, but about a th uh the British Empire would be the biggest, like the sun never set on the British Empire, right? Because in terms of total. But Rome, I mean, a thousand years.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

And we look at Rome as just ancient history now. And that's how everything is gonna be. And it's important as Americans to realize that the the the world is not the culmination of God's story, is not America.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Right. Right. Yeah. If he lived in Portugal a long time ago when it was the king.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Yeah, you're like, oh, here, no, it's all of the in fact when it says in Revelation that um he opposes all nations. Like all n there he's not gonna make the whole world American America or Israel. Or it's not that, it's a whole new kingdom. So I think the paying attention part is going, hey, the stuff that's happening here is important, just like Daniel dealt with, but there's a bigger story.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Yeah, and the and to notice what God might have you do in the midst of the of the temporary story to play into the bigger story.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Yeah, so regardless of who the president is, I still am called to make disciples. Um, even look at our church. Okay, we started in 2005. So we have now been a church through George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, and whoever is the president next. Okay, so we've had you know, Republican, Democrat, both sides, and our mandate has never changed. Right. We've not we still are called to make disciples, to teach people about who Jesus really is. We we baptize, we've baptized people under the banner of Democrat leadership, under the banner of Republican. It doesn't change. And so this stuff matters, but we live our lives mostly dedicated to a bigger story.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

And if you're not paying attention, you're gonna miss out on the fullness of what God would have you do in that season.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

So, like if you are wrapped up in the worldly kingdom stuff, then uh you let that dictate your actions out of fear or out of pride, and you actually miss out on what God has done. And you downgrade your faith, and your faith is never you that you'll see that these things are the culmination of our faith. These are the most important issues. Right. And so you'll never tell someone about what God has done in your life. Every conversation you'll have will be about who the president is and the president's this and this. And I we had a guy years ago that left our church, and I I love this guy to this day. And I called him because I was really surprised. Like I'm I felt like you know, and and people come and go. That's that's America, honestly. Like we do that with states now. We we move, we change jobs, we but this is a guy that I'd known for a while, and I was kind of and and so this was during the last 2020 time. And uh gosh, I made a joke on the in the message about a guy who I used to follow because my mom did. Yeah, yeah. I was like, we gotta get him. Anyway, I don't know if that joke was a bit. I don't think that joke was no dude. That was okay. The more more I felt the more tension was about when you were talking about like who am I gonna vote for, that that whole thing had a lot more tension than the joke about God called him home before 25 years. Yeah, there was a guy that had a TV show when I was uh in high school. I think it's probably still on, not him on it, but his it's still around. Um, but it was just like a prophecy watch show. And so basically what he did was take world events, and every episode was like, This is the fulfillment of this prophecy. And you get jaded after a while. You're like, well, but you said that was the fulfillment of the prophecy, and and uh it was constant, and it was just on in my house a lot. And Thomas and I uh were talking about Thomas grew up with that too. My little brother and I were having a conversation about him like two weeks ago, right? Like, remember that guy? Yeah, mom was always watching that show, and I love my mom, it's fine. But uh, we looked him up and we're like, he died right before COVID, like February of 2020, and we were like, wow, God was like, we gotta get we gotta get him out. He's not gonna know what this is gonna disagree too much. So anyway, no. Um I thought that was funny. Okay, good. It wasn't meant to be mean spirited, it was just meant to be, but I think it may be true. No, well, and he's home with Jesus. He's he's like, we're we're good, don't worry. Um, I was a huge tangent. What were we talking about? I'm sorry, man. Uh I don't know. I don't know. I don't remember. You said we were talking about something. We're in 2020. Yeah. This guy that left the church. Thank you. Bringing it back. And I called him and I said, Hey, what's going on? Like, you know, if this is your church. And he just went on this 30 minute thing about politics and the current state of the country. And like, I mean, it was like 30 uninterrupted minutes. Of presidential candidates, and and I was like, hey, that's cool. I actually agree with you about a lot of that. We were very politically aligned. I said, what does that have to do with our church? And he kind of didn't have an answer. He went, Oh, I uh and he paused for a second. He said, I just think that you should be talking about that stuff more. Right. And and I get it. He was he was consumed by that stuff. And in his mind, the most important thing we can be talking about every Sunday when we gather together as a church is current uh political issues. And so he found a church that does that. But I don't think the most important stuff we can be talking about. Because you talk about like these anti-w if if you go back in the archives and listen to a message that myself or Steve, the previous pastor, gave from 2007. What i you if and it was about a current political issue that was happening in that day, like you wouldn't even listen to it. You'd be like, this matters none. Like we're talking about the uh you know the Occupy Wall Street movement or something like that. And you'd be like, You just go like, why no? Right. Skip it. But there's a timelessness to us saying, no, we're we're focusing on God's kingdom because whether it's America, name another nation, I mean China has the most Christians in the world now. So there it's bigger than this. And so I think the the paying attention and living your life is going, hey, yeah, this is happening and it's important, and I'm a citizen here, so if it affects me, it affects my family, my kids, and I'm gonna do my I'm gonna do whatever I can do, but I'm part of a bigger story. And what's more important is am I teaching my children who Jesus is? Am I am I spending time with the Lord? Am I am I obeying him? Am I doing what pleases him? Am I like Matthew 25? Is my lamp right? Do I have oil? Am I sitting here like I'm waiting for God to show up, either for the fl the last time or God to show up in a way in my life where he says, Hey Justin, we got some stuff to do. Yeah, and I want to be like, Yes, I've been I'm I've been waiting for you. Yeah, and orientation toward that that final return gives you so much leeway to obey God in the smaller things that are like just like, hey, adjust this, or this is the new direction, or whatever it might be. Correct. That's so cool. It is cool. Yeah, and and I'm guilty, like I got really wrapped up in politics big time, the last presidential election. I mean, I've had moments this one too where it just it's entertaining. Like on one level, I will say that our politics has become kind of funny, you know what I mean? Which I don't know if that's good or bad, but I think it was always like that. Even like political cartoons used to be funny, and they were a thing. So I get and I have to check myself, but the last presidential election, I got I mean, it was like an unhealthy place. And I was listening to a um Well, we all were trapped inside.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

Yeah, it was like we had nothing else to do.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

But but I definitely and I had God actually convict me. Um there was a podcaster I was listening to at the time that's a political guy, and he's he's Jewish, and I really heard the Lord like I f I also I really do believe it was the Lord. Um, this thought popped in my mind that didn't sound like me, and it was like, hey, this guy probably isn't the Jewish man you should spend the most time listening to. Right. And so being meaning Jesus, meaning Jesus. Yeah, yeah, meaning Jesus. Like, I have a Jewish teacher, I should probably go, you know, so to speak. And it was like a connection for me of like you're settling for the lesser thing. And the interesting thing is when I listen to that guy's podcast, I actually agree with him on a lot, and he says, He's he, I will be honest, he's been an influential person in my life, right? But my takeaway is usually being like angry and riled up.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Being a student of him would lead you down a dark line.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Like these people are idiots and they're messing everything up. When I sit at the feet of Jesus and I listen to his teachings, I'm focusing on what I need to change in my life, what's not right in my heart, forgiveness, mercy, love, those kind of things, and that's those that's the better thing. Which is which creates a church, uh, a church body that can actually disagree about the temporary stuff. Right. And it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Not that those conversations aren't important or that those um I'm not saying that those things don't matter.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

I'm just saying when you are focused on the permanent stuff and getting that stuff right, anyone that has the disagreements about the temporary world can come together and do church together. So, like you talk about the different leadership in our country over the years. It's like when I look at our church now, some people will describe it as a very diverse church, and that gets lost on me just because I'm I'm used to it.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

But it is a pretty diverse church for our area in terms of backgrounds, beliefs, political leanings, all of that. And so it's cool to see that when you do focus on that, you're able to have unity on that stuff rather than oh, well, that defines me so much that we actually can't be in the same club, right? And that that's just cool to be part of a church too. That's that's that.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Yeah, I think so. So yeah, abomination of desolation, I think it already happened. A lot of other stuff hasn't happened. Some of the language is poetic and it's hard to read and go, oh, well, you know, don't I wouldn't necessarily tell someone look for a day when the sky is right, you know, the eclipse doesn't shining. It's not probably gonna be the eclipse going over America. Okay. This is a whole other section, we've got to bring Megan in for this. There is there is some stuff about what happens in the stars. Yeah. We see this in the like the way that the wise men knew that Jesus had arrived was there was a sign in the stars. I do think, like it says the heavens declare the glory of God. I don't think that that is just generally speaking. So that's a whole different thing. That God has, I do think God, I think there's something about that stuff. So there are a lot of scriptures that are that yes draw our attention upward, and I tend to read it all in this very like general this the space is amazing, and it reminds us that God's really big. And maybe it's more specific than that, but I don't have more to go. Yeah, I think the I think what's hard about this stuff is like you can't really crack into this stuff without going like, and I have like a lot of expertise in ancient Jewish culture, uh first century history. I know everything about Daniel and Ezekiel and Revelation and Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

It's like it's just gonna take a lifetime of paying attention.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Well, and on that note, when you read stuff with like the stars and all that kind of stuff, remember we use a lot of sports analogies in our world. Think about that this we are Americans are a very sports analog. You use a lot of sports analogies. People use a lot of sports analogies, right? Leave it all in the field. Like you may have even said that to someone before and you've never played like football. Right. But my point is Americans are very familiar with sports language. It's a huge part of our culture, even if it's not something you're a fan of. So as a as if you live in America, there's gonna be phrases that are used that you know the meaning of, and it's just sports. That meaning was a home meeting was a home run. Yes. Oh, so yeah, knocked it out of the park. Like, what are we you know? Where if you were to go back and tell in Jesus' day, you're like, oh man, we gotta leave it all on the field, guys. They're like, what is that? What are you talking about? You know, knock it out of the park. Like what it's like, oh, it's a game that I play or I watch other people play. Yeah. They lived in a culture that the stars and astronomy and astrology too were huge deal. That was as culturally relevant and ubiquitous as sports are for us. So there's a lot of language where we read it and it sounds very mysterious and strange, like the sun in the sky. Where it it may be too that like their people are hearing it like, oh yeah, I know what they mean. Like the sum of like there's they lived in a very stars have that's a whole different stars.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Genealogies is also another one that they're super into.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

Yeah, so but it all that to say I don't know my great grandfather's name. Yeah, right. At all. Like my my grandma got a family tree together one time, but I didn't really look at it. I don't know. Your grandfather's names. Go.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

Uh Neil Jackson, Bob Tompkins. Okay, that's it. I only have two grandfathers.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

What were you named after Madison as your name? Wasn't that after a great? I think that's a two greats. So that's that goes further than that. That's my grandma's grandpa. Or my grandma's dad. My grandfather's one of them's name was Augustus, yeah. Known as just Gus. And the other's name was Burl. Nice. Burl. Yeah. That's a name you don't Burl. Burl. There was a Cheshire in our family tree. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

As a dude. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

That's just a so I've got Gus and Burl. Nice. Or my we're totally off the rails now. Let's end it. All right. Matthew 24. Interesting.