SPEAKER_00 0:06

Hey, we've got a few chapters in our discussion today, singleness and divorce. And so use the if you're watching this on the YouTube channel, His Hands Church, use that to navigate and jump ahead to whichever one you want to listen to first. All right, cool. Madison. Justin. Are we rolling?

unknown 0:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Oh, we're rolling. So every so often you on the stage say, hey, there's too much to cover here, and we're going to cover it in a podcast. Well, I didn't even know what exactly we would cover. Here's what happened. We taught on marriage and divorce, because that's where we're at in Matthew, and Jesus taught on divorce. And I was tempted to do like a four-week-long marriage series crammed into one message. Because it's like I haven't taught on this topic for a long time. And I don't think I've ever actually specifically taught on divorce ever. So I just had to give myself the out of saying like I'm not going to be able to do that. These chunks can't be done. Yeah, there's going to be stuff we don't get to. Did you listen to the message? I did. Well. I actually hadn't talked to you about it. And I was like, I hope Madison listened to that because I said in it that we would do this. Yeah. And I trusted you. I was like, Madison will be. I do. I listen to the message. I know you do. But you don't necessarily have to listen to it like immediately, because that was Well, I do because sometimes we film podcasts on Monday. Trevor Burrus, Jr. I keep you on your toes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let me just start with this. Anything any big takeaways from that? So listening to this, we're going to talk about some stuff that maybe we didn't have a chance to cover specifically on the topic of divorce and Jesus' response to divorce in Matthew 19, but this probably assumes that you've listened to the message that we gave on that. Yeah, it's called Jesus and Divorce. Jesus and Divorce. I haven't heard that His Church, Jesus and Divorce. And uh yeah, this is part of our going through the book of Matthew. And when we get to hard topics, we just here we go. Can't skip it. So we Any big takeaways from the message itself? Yeah, like what I'm just saying. Well, I had to preach it to middle schoolers. Right. How was that? It was interesting. Teaching middle schoolers about well, a lot of them have probably had parents that have been divorced. Yeah. And so we kind of went a little bit of a a lighter angle, but it kind of got us into a bigger conversation about who defines what things are, like who defines marriage and what when Jesus actually gives the answer to marriage, he's in part defining it, going back to Genesis, like clarifying its purpose and all of that. And so we had to have that conversation. And obviously the Pharisees kind of got something right in the fact that they went to Jesus to get the answer, but they got something wrong in the fact that they were trying to test him. Right, right. They weren't going to Jesus for the answer. They were going to Jesus to uh to trap him. Well, and I think part of that was because this topic proved really problematic for them. This same thing happens like when they go to Jesus and ask about paying taxes. Right. And Jesus just goes, you know, whose face is on that coin? Caesar's. Well, give Caesar what's Caesars? Give God what's God's. Yeah. And they're like, no, it's too good. Right. Um and Jesus here, you know, he he in many ways goes along with one school of thought with the Rabbi Shemai that I talked about, but even adds to that, because even Shemmai didn't say, oh, and if you do this, it's adultery. Right. He didn't do that. So Jesus sort of kind of like, don't even lust. Yeah. He sort of raises the bar, but not in a legalistic, now you're screwed. Well, I think screwed way. Like a When Jesus raises the bar, uh, especially on sin, he's getting to the heart of the matter. So that's why he goes back to the beginning to make the definition of marriage really clear, but also gets to the heart of the issue when it's like, for any reason, can we get a divorce? It's like actually lust seems to be the originator of that practice. And so, you know, even if you listen to the message, like there's some things I probably should have said. Like, for example, I mean, Jesus is talking to men because in the Jewish culture, men were the only ones that could initiate divorces. Now, in another one of the books, it's it's a little his language a little more vague, could be men or women. Uh, but the Greeks could divorce each other. Women in Roman culture could divorce men. Uh, but in the Jewish culture, men could only initiate that. And so when he says only in matters of adultery, like it's not like he's saying abuse doesn't matter. It's just there wasn't an epidemic of women beating their husbands up in the first. So he's talking specifically to the ones who can initiate the divorce, which is men. And the primary motivating reason for men getting a divorce hasn't changed. Right. It's like another woman. Yeah. Um, I'm not saying all divorces that men initiate are for that reason. Right. But that uh in in my circle, I've had a lot of divorces in my family and around my family, and just and I love everyone in my family, it's no judgment, but there was always another lady involved. And so, uh, or at least the desire to find another lady involved. Right. And so Jesus is saying, yeah, that's if you just divorce your wife because you want to like call it what it is. Yeah. And you're and I think that's what's comforting and what I thought was good about the message, both you know, preaching it to the middle schoolers and hearing where you went with it, was like Jesus getting to the heart of it, you know, in our own hearts, that's he's obviously addressing the issue there. But I think when we're wrestling with what are these justifiable reasons, what are the things that, you know, if I'm uh contemplating this step in my life toward divorce, it's like, well, if you get to the heart of Jesus, that stuff should become very clear. And like that's where you're bringing up things as dark as abuse or abandonment or whatever it might be. It's like, well, I'm technically married, but I've I've been left alone for the past year or whatever it is. It's like, well, get to the heart of Jesus. Like in in the most cliche way, what would Jesus do? Um, I think gives a lot of freedom to understand. Anything I said in the message that you were like, I don't know about that. Like sometimes we have conversations and you'll share that. Yeah, that's true. I like that. It's a good thing that jumps out to you. I think the conversation about singleness, which I know is kind of where we're going with some of the discussion for like what didn't make it into the message. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I just sort of was like punted that. Yes. That's I was like, I I could talk about this more, but yeah, I just punted. I guess I think the the church has done a very bad job as laying out singleness as a viable option for a Christian to like pursue and making that seem good. Because most of the people that are preaching from the stage are married. Right. You probably would even and this is where I'm saying, like, would you be suspicious of a pastor that wasn't married? Maybe. Right. But in the Catholic Church, you know, you have to be that's led to things. Yeah, right. No, I mean so it's funny you say like it is a viable option. At the same time, like pretty much all of human civilization is built on families. So if if we like champion singleness in the way that we're like, you ought to be single, be single. That's pretty short-sighted. Sure. Because if we were like our church is devoted to singleness, no, I'm not saying it's a little bit more. No, I know that. So the point is that like most people either like there's okay, singleness is brought. There's people who are single, but they don't want to be. Right. Like I've had friends. They're involuntarily single. And we've had friends, you know, guys that we were friends with because we've we've been around the same group of guys for a long time who were single for a long time. And one of our buddies even was like, I don't even know if I'm gonna get married, because it's been years since I've been in a and then he got married not that long after that. So there's single, I can't haven't found someone yet, but I would like to be married. There's single, I've tried really hard. I have a friend that's been engaged like four or five times, never married. He's almost gotten there, and that's tough. Then there are people who are single, they used to be married, right? Things didn't go well, and now they're kind of burned and jaded, and they don't want any of that anymore. They're not looking. And there's people who are they may have had three horrible marriages and they're still looking for the next one because there's just that. So it's a it's a complicated issue. The category that is left out there is what if you're called to be single? And I think that's that's the that's the category that I think is uncomfortable because we only think when we only think in terms of marriage, we think of it like I've tried and I've failed and I've tried and I've failed, rather than like what would the Lord have you do. Correct. And that's like a different I guess maybe that's like the called to singleness world is the world that I'd uh we haven't like uh touched on too much. Or even like what that what that world looks like. Um and I know that certainly It's probably tough for me because I got married at 21 years old. How old were you when you got married? Twenty-one, yeah. 21. So it's like marriage has been it's been single for very long. And you don't want to tell someone who's just socially awkward maybe you're called to singleness as a way to uh blunt the the hurt that might come from singleness. Yeah. But there I think there are genuinely people that the Lord you know, Jesus was single.

unknown 9:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Jesus never got married. And it's funny we'd be like, uh in general, I'm kind of vaguely suspicious of someone who who's a leader in the church. Well, and it's singly enough, that was probably we don't have we don't have any direct source kind of stuff from scripture on this, but most rabbis were married. Like I'd heard someone who uh you know, you have those guys that come around anytime in in our faith, someone starts teaching something in the year 2000, something that no one's ever taught. 2003, you're like, what? You're like, hey, that's and his point was Jesus was married because rabbis got married, and so Jesus would never have been taken seriously as a rabbi if he wasn't married. Right. And it's like, well Well, maybe Jesus did things differently. He seemed to be pretty comfortable doing things differently, and uh but that that's the point. Like so you're saying the Da Vinci Code secret stuff. Yeah, yeah. But my point is it was normal for rabbis to be married, just like it's normal for pastors to be married. Yeah, and I'm sure Jesus dealt with that too. People are like, well, hey, you're not married. Right. You're 30 as a guy. I mean, guys got married 30, they really could get married at any time, but 30 to 40 would have been a very normal time to get married. You're starting to get you're gonna marry a 14-year-old girl. Yeah. And that's where I think for Jesus, he kind of lays out the perfect the perfect vision of singleness is that his duty to the Lord uh required undivided attention. Yeah. And that's what you have two major categories of of calling people to singleness in scripture. You have the you're given a task by God that requires your total focus. And Paul talked about that with himself. He actually said, I wish all could be as I am. And there's a lot of people who have debated was Paul married before, because he was a Pharisee of Pharisees, and again, Pharisees are usually married. Pharisees were married. Um so maybe he was married, and I don't, but again, you gotta be really careful in the speculation stuff, because whatever. Maybe the thorn in his side was his nagging wife. He just couldn't talk about it any other way. He's like, I just can't bring this up. No, he's had like a really annoying laugh. No, he's he's single. He's single. He's single. And he says, I wish all could be like me. Yeah. Because he was so focused on his passion for the Lord. And he also, like Jesus, probably knew this is going to end in death. Like I'm I'm on a collision course with I'm gonna get executed. Like that's Jesus knew that he would tell the disciples, and they're like, No, and he's like, No, no, no, they're gonna kill me. And so, so Paul talks about you know, there's that kind of like my calling forth to the Lord requires this. There's also Paul uh also in one of his letters recommends people to not get married. Yeah, um, but that's sort of connected to the challenges of the world at that time. And in that specific time, it was a really harsh time to be alive. Um, there's famine going on, there's intense persecution. And it's like if you're living in a time where you're being heavily persecuted for your faith and just the world around you is crumbling. Yeah. Um having a family to take care of isn't a big extra burden. And so there's a sort of practical idea there of like maybe this isn't the right time. Yeah, I've got the scripture pulled up. Yeah, go for it. But before we get to Paul, I felt like it was important to just address what Jesus said in the message that we were like, and we don't have time to deal with it as like a way into that. So we're gonna talk about singleness now and then we'll come back around to some extra stuff with marriage and divorce. Yeah, and that's it. Okay, you have more marriage and divorce stuff on the docket. I yeah, I guess just uh I I could have there were so many different divorce situations that I have been involved in in counseling that sort of fit these interesting categories. Aaron Powell And you just wanted to kind of uh lift the burden of like puzzling that out by just saying it, kind of naming it. Yeah. And and even had I even had a guy reach out to me. He's like, hey, feel free to use my story if you want to. Like there are these divorces that fall into these unique sort of situations, and I think they're worth talking about. Cool. And so because it's not always as clear-cut as we might like it to be. Yeah, right. Okay, so singleness first and then that. Yeah, we'll come back to it. Okay, sweet. So from the passage you preached on on Sunday, this is uh Matthew 19, verse 10. The disciples said to him, you know, if it's the case of a man and his wife, it's better not to be married. If you can't get out of this, yeah, right. Should you even do it? And he said to them uh not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it. Yeah. So this verse for me. You define eunuch a castrated person. Okay. But it's likely that he's using that euphemistically, too. At least in the last one. Partially. Now it's interesting. There was a guy. Um do you know much about the church fathers? No. Okay. So I'm pretty sure this is Tertullian. I think it was Vespasian. Is that another one? Vespasians, I think. Uh is he a Roman guy? Yeah. I'm just like pulling out names. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh Tertullian was uh one of the ch early leaders of the church, in like first couple centuries. And I'm pretty sure it was Tertullian. It may have been Origen. One of those dudes. One of the We prepare for these. Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Polycarp, it's one of those. It's one of those dudes. Castrated himself because of the scripture. Wow. Like physically. And then later on wrote, I should have done that. But took it to the point of, like, oh, I'm a eunuch for the sake of the kingdom. I am now take it the whole way. So okay, eunuch people are born eunuchs. There are people, like it's still the case today. Um, but probably ever it may have been even more the case in previous centuries because of just birth defects and so this would just be what we currently call intersex or it's a small percentage of people who are born with it's a deformity. It's it's a physical deformity that would not allow them to be to engage in the family-making business. And and so, yeah, and they're born that way. And Jesus says, yeah, that's a reality of this world. Some people are born this way. Some people have been made eunuchs by others, so it was very common in uh very common in Roman households and just the whole ancient history of slaves and yeah. This is like what's the guy's name in Esther? He's like the the guy that like handles the the um the women. He's like the in charge of the all of the women. Yeah, he's like yeah, he's castrated as like a logistical. Yeah, right. Yeah, you're you're in charge of the king's harem. Correct. But there you go. And so uh yeah, no, we so eunuchs very often serve a lot of servants in king's courts and stuff would have been castrated, um, often at a young age. And this was sort of like, well, that's one less thing that we have to worry about them doing, and this allows them to be, we can add, you know, um, this will take care of some potential distractions, kind of stuff. And that and that's something that Jesus isn't recommending that. He's saying this is the real this is the world we live in. It's a reality of the right. Some people are born eunuchs, some people are made eunuchs by others, and this is the real point. Some choose to be for the sake of the kingdom. Like if you look at this, he's saying to his disciples, and I think it's important to remember here, most of them weren't married. Right. Peter we know was, but it's very possible that he is the only one of the disciples who who aren't married. So uh these guys are single guys, and they're going, well, if that's the case, Jesus, I mean, if you marry someone and you're married to them for life and there's no right, like there's really a pretty small window of uh get out of it. Allowance, yeah. Yeah, so is it just better not to marry? And Jesus' answer to them is like, I mean, for you guys, maybe. Yeah, right. Because uh some are called to be eunuchs for the eunuchs in practicality. Your your singleness is not just uh celibate, we would maybe say for the sake of the kingdom. And in the early church, I will say there were movements in the early church, and this is where some of the Catholicism stuff comes in. There were movements in the early church. You read the church fathers, uh celibacy was a an extremely valued thing in early church history. Like it was viewed as a uh I mean it was like a virtue, a virtue, a hundred percent. Like you were oh celibacy. So you know, and and Paul talks about it similarly that you know, hey, for some it's better. Um you know, but obviously a society can't function on. And that's why uh there's actually sorry, there was actually a uh okay Tertullian, I do know it was him, later in his life got wrapped up into this um kind of movement like a sect within Christianity, and celibacy was like their one of their biggest things. And it didn't last that long. It died out. It died, it did, it died out within a generation, right? Because there's no generation to follow that up. Right. And so um I think that's where what I love about Paul is like if you take, you know, all these verses that we're kind of referencing and leave them in isolation, it's like, yeah, that seems kind of intense. But when you bring it all together, and even with what Jesus is saying, you bring it all together, it actually does kind of provide uh a um guilt-free is not the word, just like a righteous path in both lanes. Like you can you can pursue that e either way, and that is that is totally fine. It's totally fine to pursue. We know a ministry that we've worked with and talked to these people many times, uh, where it's people who are same-sex attracted, right, and also Christians, and who have submitted their sexuality to the values of scripture, which is meant for them. Well, then I can't I can't act upon my my desires because my desires are for same-sex, and they have taken essentially a life of celibacy on, right, and they'll describe it as a calling to singleness and celibacy. They would still say, we still are same-sex attracted, we're not attracted to the opposite sex. But we have we're for foregoing that in our pursuit of Jesus. In our pursuit of Jesus. And that's similar, and I mean it's at least adjacent to what Jesus is talking about here, which is I every time I hear them talk about that, I'm like, it's amazing. Yeah. And I think that's what for Jesus followers, it's it's it is just surrendering your life and every aspect of your life, including your relationships and sexuality to to the Lord. And that's why I think Paul can get away with saying something as challenging as wives submit your to your husbands physically, and husbands submit to your wives physically. And and let that be a thing that happens. Have sex with each other, um, unless you're devoting yourselves to a time of prayer and you're you're fasting for a short period of time. Fast from it, but only for a short period. He says that. And yeah, that's in uh 1 Corinthians 7. Um and he says, now as a concession, not a command, I say this. I wish that all were as I am, uh, but each has his own gift from God and each one to another. To the unmarried and to the widows, I say, it's good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, yeah, if you're burned, if you're like Yeah, yeah. If you have sexual desire, essentially, you can get married. For it's better to marry than to burn with passion. Yeah. And so I think that uh I don't know. I just like that that reading of it because when you read that, like, and then some people to to devote themselves to the Lord must remain single. It's like, well, God's obvious obviously like created an allowance for like the way he wired you and made you. So if you deeply desire a relationship for the sexual end of it or not, or the companionship, all of that. It's like it's okay to pursue that relationship. Don't be guilted in to like, I have to forgo that because of Jesus. I actually had it almost happen to me. Well, I didn't say almost, like not that almost, but when I was a freshman in college, there was a guy, I don't remember his last name, his name is Greg, and he was like a couple years older than me. And he was one of those just like on fire for Jesus college guys, would preach to, you know, brought his Bible with him everywhere. Right. Lunch at and he, but he was like a really cool guy. I liked him a lot. And you know, I was a freshman in college, felt called to ministry. I'd already kind of felt that when I was in high school. I would I would have actually told people, like, I probably gonna be, I'm probably gonna work in a church somewhere. Like that's something that was by the time I was a freshman in college, I was comfortable saying that. And he told me he's like, and I also had Megan. So I was a freshman in college. I had a girlfriend back home in Georgia, which wasn't even my home because my parents were in Missouri too, but where I'd been to high school. I had a long distance girlfriend and I was hoping and praying that she was gonna come to college. And Greg was like, I don't know, man. Like you say, you're called to ministry, she'd probably be single. Like he was and he had probably just read that. Yeah, right. And I look back at it, like I saw him as this sage, and he was like a 22-year-old. Yeah. Um he is your senior. Yeah. And uh he was big on that. He's like, you he told me you should probably break up with your girlfriend because I mean you're it's gonna be a distraction to what God's called you to do. Right. He got married later on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but uh, and I wrestled with that. Like, oh, am I being I felt serious that I was called to ministry. Am I somehow being weak by being married? And man, I look back now and I go, gosh, I A, I would have been a disaster as single. Megan has I mean, she's challenged me, sharpened me, added some. I mean, she does a lot here at the church. Like she's super involved. Yeah, so that definitely was was fine. But I think so some people are called. And I think there's also even a caveat to say that if you just, if it hasn't worked out, if you've tried. That still is a full life. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. That that is, you're not a failure. And it's tough. There's things you may, you know, have I really wish I would have had kids, or I wish I could have.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

And that's and I'm not downplaying that. I know people that that's been a real challenge for, but Paul is also saying there is there is more to life than just being married and having a family. There is more. And sometimes there's a freedom, but it's not a selfish freedom. It's kind of like there's been this trend on social media for uh couples who have no children to sort of a dink. What is that? Double income, no kids. Oh, sure. Dinks. Um you're aware of this. I don't know if that's that's like what it was in the 90s. The video is like bragging about all the things we get to do because we don't have kids. It's like waking up at 1030 because we don't have kids, going on this awesome vacation because we don't have kids, driving this nice car. It's not to pursue worldly. Correct. It's not like, oh, but there are I mean, I think like right now, Warren, uh who's on our staff, is out with his nonprofit that he does with the disaster relief. There was a huge hurricane that just happened. And man, if you're single, yeah, there's just but you know, there's people who can do things like that. Yeah. And they're not, there's no family responsibilities. Right. You mentioned like being a pastor. Look, you can probably be a little braver saying certain things when the only person it affects is you. I think Paul was like that. He didn't have to worry about, oh, well, what I say and do is going to get back to my kids are gonna deal with that. You know what I mean? Right. So yeah. Yeah, and that's why he says later in. I would just recommend anyone who's interested in this, just read 1 Corinthians 7, because there's more than I than I can share. He says, I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord, but the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife. And his interests are divided. Um, and so I think the to me, it's like that divided thing, I think, is is interesting because when you're married, there is that other person that you're like, oh, I've got to consider their needs, I've got to consider their desires, I've got to consider their preferences. Like you shared the going to bed at a certain time time thing. Yeah. And so I've I've just started to think of singleness. Uh, I just like the word singleness. And I've kind of tied to like singleness of devotion. Like when you say that, one of the requests we get a lot is for a singles ministry. Right. But I've never heard of someone give a request for a singleness ministry. Yeah. Like we're a thing. We're called to singleness and it's singleness as a way of life. Hey, we're freed up to we'll be up till midnight because we're not worried about, you know, whatever it might be. Like singles, usually when people want a singles ministry, it's like I want to meet someone at church. Correct. And it's like singleness, it is a totally viable thing. Jesus, let's look at it this way. Jesus lived that life. He's a pretty cool person to follow. Paul lived that life, pretty great person to follow. We we owe a lot to single dudes.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Uh in terms of that. But I I think it's important, we'll move on. Paul says, I wish all could be as I am. I heard a pastor say once that he isn't just saying single, he's saying single and okay with that. Yeah, right. And so don't, if you are single, it's viable. But also don't don't feel like you're being somehow less g less devoted to Jesus if you if you do it, like you mentioned, have a heart that I really do want to. Yeah. And I think in your devotion to Jesus too, like Jesus can do things that you can't expect. And so if you can't expect a relationship given your circumstances or whatever it might be, uh Jesus can overcome that. So like in your devotion to him, it might be that that was the first step that you needed to take to be ready for a relationship with someone else. And it yeah, like you say, it could be seasonal, right? I'm I'm called to singleness in this season of life. Yeah. And then maybe that season changes later on. Yeah. For sure. And just take advantage before we move on, just take advantage of that season of singleness as an opportunity to be devoted to the Lord. Yeah, just instead of wasting it on like, yeah, I stayed up and slept, uh, yeah. I was like really good at Mario tennis during that season of my life. Man, I missed that. That's true. Um it's like, no, you could be doing things like we were thinking about Warren and the stuff work he does. Like, yeah, you can say yes to certain things. Yeah, take more risks. Now's the time to start your business if you're single, and the Lord might have great success in that business, but you don't have to drag a wife through that. You know what I mean? Like whatever it might be. So totally uh but you uh you said you wanted to address some of the other divorce situations. Oh man. Yeah, it was tough because most of the marriages that I have counseled, and usually when I'm counseling, I'm not a marriage counselor, so it's not necessarily couples. Right. A lot of times I have guy, I don't meet with women and counsel women. I don't do that. We have awesome women on staff who do that. And uh, but I meet with a lot of dudes, and I've had a lot of guys come to me over the years thinking about getting a divorce, or or basically sometimes decided in their heart to get a divorce, and I've walked them through that, and the vast majority of those are like don't do it. I said that on the message, fix it, figure it out. But some of those are just situations that are like unlike from God can do anything, but from a human point of view, it just seems like it's a done deal. And then they're having to dr to deal with the aftermath of that, you know. Like had a guy one time whose wife just um, and this is my to my knowledge, you know, you have to always do this, but um, you know, I kind of mentioned this in the message where abuse is definitely a valid reason to get a divorce. A firable offense. Correct. Yeah, it's correct. Yeah. But there I do think there are times where when you're in a when where things that are what I would probably consider below abuse, but are are bad human behavior. Sure. Okay, can you if you're really wanting to get divorced, you can elevate stuff in your mind to go like Explain. Well, I okay, this is uh this is where it's like it's tough. I think emotional abuse is a real thing. I think verbal abuse is a real thing, 100%. I also think that it's possible to um do some mental gymnastics to elevate things to that level. Sure. And use it to justify a divorce. When maybe it's maybe divorce is not you've decided to get divorced, and now you're fishing for and now you're gonna upgrade things. Yeah, fight you had yesterday where we've got to be able to do that. Or you could even escalate each other. Escalate fights so that you can justify the decision or whatever it might be. It might, it might be, but you really gotta be careful about that. I do think that that's a thing because we do live in a culture now where people get divorced all the time, and it's easy when you want to do that to and usually when you want to do that, it's the divorce the marriage isn't good, so it's a lot of pain and frustration, but to sort of to elevate things to you know what I mean? No, I mean I'm I'm trying to track maybe to claim abuse when there's not abuse. Okay, when it's just fighting, right? And like there's a difference between those things sometimes. And so I guess what I'm saying is like I had okay, so I I had a guy and his wife left and then claimed that there was abuse, and he was like, There's not. There's not. Like, I'm not. And like I had to be real careful because he wanted me in that situation. There were times where he's like, Hey, will you vouch for me? And I'm like, I don't, I don't know. I'm not you weren't there. Oh, I'm not there. Right. And I have and I talked to her, and she's like, Well, it wasn't physical abuse, he wasn't hitting or anything like that, but you know, he just call her names. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, maybe not. But the point is, theirs was really tough because I was like, nothing I heard, like when I would ask her, so tell me what that is, it was all very vague. And I was like, Well, it seems like you guys can still work this out. Like it doesn't seem like it seems like you have an explosive relationship in some ways, and there's lots of things that have been said, but that stuff can be forgiven, and you know what I mean? But really, as I is the more it that the more that specific thing went on, it seemed like she just really wanted to get divorced. Sure. And there was no you know what I'm saying? Yeah. And I watched him go through that pretty devastated. And uh, and you know, the way it's borne out since the divorce happened is like she's just living a very different life now, and there's been a lot of different guys, and you know, it's like kind of that story, which is sort of it's really sad too, because it's like you've gone from being married to now just I got new boyfriend, every whatever. That's not a happy life. Yeah, so you're saying if one party has decided to get divorced and there's nothing you can do about it, you're not gonna you're not gonna force someone to stay because that can be abuse, you're not gonna lock someone up. You know what I mean? There's nothing you can do. Yeah, and he was actually like, hey, as the church, should you guys have done he he actually asked me point blank one time, you guys, I think you guys should have gotten more involved. Sure. And I was like, hey man, maybe I don't know. This is like uncharted waters for me. But I had her using language that made me go, I can't just be like, well, I don't believe you. Yeah, right. Because I don't know what happened, and I would never tell a woman, hey, you're you're exaggerating things. I'm not gonna do that because I don't know. Um, but even B what I told him, even if that forget all that stuff for a minute. She wants to divorce you. She's decided to. Like that's a decision she's made. And I I had a buddy of mine years ago that had been married a couple times, and he said there's only one thing that prevents divorce, and it's two people equally devoted to saving the marriage. And when you have one person that's just out, then you find yourself divorced against your will. You know, I think it's the hard thing about divorce, is it's not always we mutually agreed, or there's the person who I messed up, I had an affair, I did something, I crossed the line. Sometimes it's like I got divorced and I didn't want I'm a divorced person and I didn't want to be. Sure. And that's a really hard, I've seen a lot of situations like that. And then people in the aftermath have going, well, now what? What do I do? And a lot of times those people will be really gun shy about marriage from that point on. They'll they'll often find they'll often find another person, but they might stop short of getting married. Yeah. Because that's a long-term live-in roommate relationship sort of situation, but not but kind of afraid of that opening that same wound. Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I've seen situations like that. I've seen situations where you know I've seen situations where it's reversed, where there's a guy, and there's not physical abuse happening, but you know, it's like you made a joke and it wasn't a it wasn't a sexist joke. You talked about a nagging wife. It's not a sexist joke. It can be viewed that way. Um, I'm saying in our culture today can be kind of hypersensitive to that stuff. But there's several proverbs about how like I don't think the Bible is like Many people would say the Bible is sexist. Of course they would. And it was a patriarchal society and all that. And that and some of the difference. It's a whole different conversation. Solomon wrote like better to live in the corner of an attic or better to live in the desert than than with a nagging wife. And what do you do in a dynamic where you married someone and they just seem like devoted to making your life miserable? Like they there's no- You married the wrong person then. Yeah, you married what do you do there? There's a guy that I he's like, my wife hasn't been intimate with me in f like years. Sure. And won't. Right. So it's like, hey man, well, yeah, I don't know. You're stuck because she hasn't had an affair. So you can't get a divorce. And by the way, the like many of these guys I'm talking about stayed married. And it's tough. And you hope that a season will change. Yeah. Um, that's where I think there's kind of a different conversation to be had with is there an appeal to Jesus from either party? So like if if one party it's like scripture says that people without the spirit can't understand the ways of the spirit. And so if let's say I'm a Christian and my wife is not, that's not the case, but I'm just saying, you it would be very hard to appeal to the word. It would be very hard to appeal to Jesus to say, like, hey, like there's some dynamics that we need to work on. I'm willing to, you know, suffer through some of this, but like for the sake of the Lord, we need to be moving in this direction. If the other person is is absolutely refuses. That's a hardness of heart. Yeah, the appeal to Jesus, I think that opens up the conversation regardless of what the struggle is. So you talk about uh sex, you could talk about things like addiction and alcoholism or porn addiction or whatever it might be. What about what about a guy who just refuses to provide for his family? Yeah, definitely. Right. Just won't. Or like that's what I'm saying, the gambling, even, or just making decisions that are volatile for our family. Correct. Everything can be forgiven. Definitely. You know, I I I think that uh there's actually there's a lot to be commended to people who s who endure really challenging marriages. That is in in some ways a virtuous thing. Like you've I know people who've said I could get divorced, I have rights, I have grounds even with Jesus to get divorced, adultery even. But I just believe that marriage is really sacred and I'm gonna stick it out. And I don't sometimes look at people like that, I'm like, ah, that's tough. But some might look at that and say it's weakness, you can also say it's virtue, and go, man, you don't have to exercise your right to be divorced. There is there's reconciliation and forgiveness to be had in any relative. Correct. But there are times where, you know, like I say, if I'm like, there's the there's wearing my pastor hat, right? Where it's like 99% of the time the advice I give is stay married. I I don't actually try to think of times I've told people you should get a divorce. Right. Um there have been a few where it's like yes, you I can affirm that you you would be within your God would not be angry with you if you got divorced in your situation. But I don't tell people, oh, you should get divorced. Um if there was abuse, I I like it's just dangerous I would. But there have been times where we take the pastor head off and it's just me as a dude where I've been with guys and it's like, man, I can see how their life would be a lot better if they weren't married to this person. And that's tough because we do choose the wrong person sometimes, so to speak. Like we we do make decisions on who to marry in seasons of life and we're not thinking through things and and all that kind of stuff. Um and it's uh and it gets really, really complicated. And so for some people it's almost like they feel doomed to a life of misery in marriage. And those are hard situations. They're really hard situations. And you're not making a judgment on it. What's that? You're not like landing on one side or the other. Well, I so I land on the side of if you if you're living your life, say no sin. We're not talking about sin. Let's talk about just they annoy me and I don't like them, and we don't really like each other. I would say in those situations, um go to counseling, work on it, and pray and submit your lives to the Lord and honor him with the vow that you made. Yeah, it's a let your yes be yes, let your yes be yes situation. But I do think sometimes in those situations it doesn't work out. Oh, I know it I know it doesn't. But I mean in like a what one person isn't willing to. Right. And how long do you go with that? How long does do you you know, and so it's a weird thing I as I prepared for this, I I'm gonna say this, um, and this is gonna sound wishy-washy, but I'm just sometimes you're teaching and you're processing things, I hate divorce because God hates it. And I've seen what divorce does and how it destroys, and it's tough. I wouldn't be alive if divorce wasn't a thing. But if you ask me, hey, what do you think it was God's will that my dad left his first wife and his first two kids? It's like, no, I don't think that was God's will. And yet here I am, and I wouldn't even be alive, and my little brother wouldn't be alive, and like uh so I no, I don't think it was God's will that my dad did that. But I think God can work within uh uh our choices in really interesting ways. You know what I mean? I guess what I'm saying is in some ways, this is like a new thought for me. And I said something like this in the message. I've never in some ways, divorce, and this is like maybe controversial. So that's why there's a difference between something being a thought and something being like, I will write a book about this. This is a thought. In some ways, the concession for divorce that God gave in Deuteronomy was like an act of grace because I've never thought about divorce like that, but without it, there's just no there's zero mechanism for being in really, really terrible and sometimes dangerous situations, and it's like you're just you're doomed. And there's a religiousness, there can be a religious aspect to no divorce that is not rooted in the heart of Jesus or even the heart of God, where because of the hardness of hearts in certain situations, it's just all about top-down, heavy-handed religion. And that's very much the way that the Pharisees were about the Sabbath and other things I mentioned about the message. Yeah. And I think that can be applied too to divorce in a way that you have a culture where uh people are just they're hopeless. Yeah, the the two ends of the spectrum are the liberalism that comes from this question of can we get a divorce for any reason? It's like, well, bro, chill out. No. Absolutely not. But then the religiosity and the religiousness, the uh the stern, you know, rule setting that says, okay, unless there is an express act of adultery. Yeah, we're gonna make a list of three things. Most guys will say adultery or abuse. Yeah, right. But anything that's not that. So what like you say, what do you think? So you're saying that you're finding um maybe more of an allowance for divorce within the heart of God that comes from a pursuit of Jesus that says, okay, there is sometimes sin within a marriage. There is sometimes inability to reconcile within a marriage. And you're not you would say that that wouldn't be sin to divorce. Or do you say that that's sin that you would forget that would be forgiven? Of course, all sin is forgiven. I just I think that there is a Yeah. I think that like I had a I've known guys in ministry that have decided to get divorced. Should they still be in ministry? I don't think so. Yeah, so then then you would there's consequences. Like they knew that. Right. And they were like, this is so bad I'm willing to I understand that I may not be able to function in this. I'm not the role model, maybe I don't want who knows. Sure. And I look at that, my point is not that I recommend it or that I think it's great. I just I I guess that it's very easy when you're not in a terrible situation to I've had guys sit across the table from me and just share their their story, and and I believe them because I mean maybe they're lying, but they seem pretty convincing. And it's really, really bad. You know, it's really bad. And you sit there and you go, man. What I think when I say is fight the good fight, like keep going. Like that's what I that was the takeaway of the message. Fight for your marriage. And be willing to fight for a really long time. Um but it's I'm just saying it's tough. It's tough, which I know is a Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I disagree. And that's where what's your thought? I don't know. That's what I'm saying is I I think that to call to call it not sin. You know, maybe that's the Well I'm not saying that. That's why you you said I would say that. That's what I'm asking. I'm asking for clarification on what you're landing on. You're saying that there are reasons to divorce that are justifiable that God would not be angry at. And that's what I'm saying. Perhaps. Yeah. And so that to me means it's not sin. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think that it's I guess my point is there's a principle and there's a law, right? There's different, yeah. And there's a principle that we do have in scripture that there are justifiable reasons for divorce. Yeah. And I think what I would say is that is they're way fewer than you might want to believe. Sure. Right? It's very easy. The Pharisees that Jesus is teaching against took on a more liberal view of like any reason. Jesus does not affirm that at all. So if you're sitting there like, oh, I think that we just can't seem to click. We're not clicking lately. Like I'm like, Yeah, right. I've been married for 20 years, and there have been whole years where we're not clicking. Like, and some of those years have been foundational in ways. And now we're in a better place that it's not always sunshine and rainbows. So that's stuff I'm not talking about. I've just had I've just had situations where I'm like, man, this doesn't fit abuse and it doesn't fit adultery. But it is like one person seems almost completely hellbent on a total dereliction of the vows of marriage, the point of marriage, and I would tell that person, if you can stay married, like do it. Because God can change anyone's heart. Right. And like if you can. But in those situations where they can't, I'm I'm just I'm not quick to be like, well, you messed up. You know what I'm saying? Because it's some situations are really hard. Maybe the caveat in all of this is to just have that conversation with somebody too. I maybe what I'm sensitive to. Obviously, in our relationship, I lean on the more religious side of things, and I I know that about myself. And you lean on the more liberal side of things when it comes to the Trevor Burrus. Hold on. I don't think so. Trevor Burrus, Jr. No, not politically liberal. I'm saying theologically. No. I'm a very conservative theologian. I think the difference between me and you, as you're as your elder, I am more okay with saying I don't know. Yeah. And I'm still processing that and I haven't landed on it. You like to have a very black and white face. I'm not dodging the question. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on. I'm saying that I have a comfort level. I'm not dodging a question. I'm answering by saying I actually have a comfort level with going, this isn't a category for me of too much. And I think that it might be more complicated than I previously thought at a younger age. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And that's where I I'm like, give me a policy. No, I appreciate that. No, I'm saying what I don't want is someone to listen to this and use this as grounds for their justification toward that. So that's what that was my point earlier when I was saying don't trump up things that have happened in your marriage to abuse. Right. When like, is it abuse or is it just y'all had some really bad moments and things were said that shouldn't have been said. Yeah, or adultery is the same way where you can turn uh pornography failure into adultery. You can turn 100% friendship, a friendship relationship into the city. Technically, a pornography failure is adultery, right? But I had a old lady, I had to use that example, I had a couple come to me as a couple, and I brought another person, it wasn't just me with them, and that was the issue was pornography. But the guy was repentant and really committed to changing. And I told the lady, I said, Hey, listen, if this is such a big deal to you, and they weren't married yet, they were engaged. Sure. But if this is such a big deal to you, grounds for breaking up. Everything is grounds for breaking up. Their nose is whatever it is, yeah. Technically, their laugh is annoying. But they were they were and they were in a engaged but had lived together for a long time. I think there's family meshing. So it was more in mesh than just a typical like whatever. And that's not how I wouldn't recommend doing that ever, but that's the reality of their situation. Right. But I looked at her and I said, hey, listen, I mean, you are you are justified. This is a you're right. I will tell you, he seems really sorry and repentant and committed to doing what's necessary to be free of this. For some guys, it's really hard. And it's gonna be hard for you to find a guy in the world we live in today that is like, I've never looked at pornography.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

I I hate that that's the case. So I would tell a woman like if you're married and he's he's looked at pornography, that's serious. If he's unwilling to change, if he seems like it's not a big deal, that that's that is like constant adultery in a lot of ways. But if he's like, I hate this, I want to get help, I I'd I'd hang in there. Yeah. Because that's where even our our disagreement for it's not even that I don't think we're actually disagreeing, is I would probably put it in more of a category of like unrepentant sin comes with consequences and divorce might be a consequence of unrepentant. Thank you. I love that. And that that's not that God isn't angry about that, it's more just like God's angry about the unrepentant sin, and as a person, you can't force somebody else to do it. If a woman's married to a guy who goes out and racks up a ton of debt, right, and then is like, hey, I'm sorry, or isn't sorry, like whatever, and he goes and does it again, and now you're you're sitting there and you are destitute because he keeps that. Yeah, that's that's where I it would at the very least be the most unwise person that has ever has ever lived. That's where that's where I say is I'm coming to this. I'm not being more liberal, I'm recognizing that there's a principle here where there are justifiable reasons for divorce. The human heart has a tendency to, as Jesus encounters, to want to amplify those to a ridiculous degree. And we can't do that. Yeah, right. But there's a religious spirit that also wants to confine it in a way that can find it to some some to some letter of the law when you're putting someone in a position of of extreme, you know, potentially darkness, even. Correct. And that's that's where I think it's just sort of Because abuse isn't laid out here. We keep saying sexual immorality in a big thing. Because he's talking to men, and there were, like I said earlier, there wasn't an epidemic of men being a big thing. But I'm saying it's still an inference that goes beyond the letter of the law. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And we're all pretty comfortable with that. Yes, right. So we can say that there's probably a slightly wider circle than just adultery. Jesus uses this as his example, um, and he's talking to men in a specific situation. But all that to say, marriage is awesome and it's really hard at the same time, but it's close to God's heart. And that's what I talked about in the message. It's hard to have a conversation that's like singleness and everything you can to stay married. I love being married. Me too. Most people don't know I'm married. I had been? Yeah. I had middle schoolers even asking, like, are you married? And I was like, Yeah. I've been married for years. She works in the middle school. Like she's there on Wednesday. Do you think it's because they just think she's out of your league and they can never even fathom you being in a couple of things? It's more than like it's probably what it is. I would never look at the two of you and assume because like she's out of your league. So she's like, way smarter than me. She's way prettier than me. Yeah. What what what happened? Did you go to a small private school and you just didn't have that big of a clutch? I was that same thing too. I think the I don't know what it is. We we talk about it sometimes because a lot of people are like, oh, you're the oh, you guys. Well, they don't see you together that often. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's true, but they don't see you and Megan together that often. No. And I actually had to, years ago, there was someone else on our staff that did a lot of like talking to, and it was easy for the two of us to be like co-hosting things. And then people assume that was my wife, and I like immediately stopped that. I'm never gonna co-host that person ever again. Trevor Burrus, Jr. And so I think it's more that uh yeah, they just don't see us together. Maybe I don't share a lot of stories. You share more stories than I do. I do I talk about Megan a lot. Yeah, I don't I don't really like it Well that's all you gotta fix that. I haven't even said her name. No one even knows people about your wife's no one knows my wife's name. She just loves to be. She goes to a different church. But all that to say, she's awesome. We're obviously wrapping up. If you're listening to this, singleness is a viable option. Yep. It probably needs to be a calling or something, you know. But even if it it can be it can be a calling, we would say, but even if it's something where you've tried, it hasn't worked out, don't feel like you're living a failed life because the Bible actually commends many people who live a single life, and there's things you can do that and if you're married, if you've been divorced, even if it was your fault, even if you're the one that messed it all up and you're like, I sinned, there's redemption for your sins in Jesus. 100%. Yeah. And God restores so many things, and he hates divorce, but he doesn't hate people who have been divorced. I feel confident. That's definitely yeah. But some people feel that. Right. And certain sins have this um uh stickiness to them, where it's like, oh, that's stuck to me, and now I'm I see myself as a divorced person. There's definitely people listening to this, or definitely people out there who like, oh, I I had an affair in the divorce. I'm the reason that happened. And that's true. And you can both own your sin. In fact, I believe sometimes you can't really own grace until you fully own your sin. So if you minimize your sin, you actually minimize how much God's forgiven you. If you can just own it and be like, I was an adulterer, yeah, and God forgives adultery. Yeah, right. Done, cancelled. Um, but if you are married and it's and it's tough and divorce is on your mind, uh I I think the the the like most innocuous advice I say is, man, be very, very careful. Marriage is super close to God's heart. He loves it. And even people I know who have had divorces where it wasn't like an affair or something like that, but they still feel like it was the right decision for them and they're followers of Jesus, at the same time, I've watched them wrestle with that. It can be a burden, yeah. And it's not as easy as like best decision I ever made. New life now. That sort of thing. Because that's what you you start to believe is that your new life comes from your divorce. And I think that's the where to land is your new life starts and ends with Jesus. 100%. And so being devoted to him, regardless of your relationship, your singleness, your struggles, whatever it is, yeah, it's like he can restore all things. So agreed. Choose Jesus. Choose Jesus and trust that he can't. Good combo. Great combo. I don't think you're liberal. I was more just saying I contend more religious. I I do. It's so funny because you've grown up at his hands, under my tutelage, and yet you're like way more hard than you're gonna be. You're not, no, it's that you value I I I see it as a a real positive, as long as it's refined. Same for me. Um I can be sometimes too comfortable with like, I don't know. Yeah. And move on. And you uh and you can be a little bit too I want the answer. Yeah, I mean, like, what is the and I'm like uh yeah. And sometimes we need an answer. And sometimes, I'm not saying you dodge it. I'm not wishy-washy. And when I'm I'm you're laughing at me. I'm not. You think I am? Yeah, sometimes. Really? It's okay with it. This could be a whole nother podcast. Oh my gosh. See, I would say when I oh I'll put it this way. I'm not offended. Um when I have a conviction about something, I'll say it. That's that's what I'm saying. I don't care who thinks what. You do have a clear thing. It's more the uh maybe that's it. Is like in the process, I would rather just default to the letter while I process, the letter of the law. And it's like, well, that the letter of the law, and maybe I'm I believe that God's word is inspired and we should live by it. 100%. I know you agree. And it's really clear about most things. But you you are you're uh when you've opened it up, when you've opened up the the conversation, you you are more comfortable living in uh embracing that openness as you're like, well, think about it this way, think about it this way. I agree. I won't do that. Yeah, like well, technically, if you think about it, like no, come on, don't be so smart, you're stupid. Like I say that.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

But when there are things that I think that there are interesting conversations to be had, and when I was younger, I was more black and white. And I'm not getting less devoted to Jesus. I'm just there's certain topics now where I go, oh well, yeah, I've seen some just different perspectives on that. So but I love the Lord in scripture, and you called me liberal on the podcast, and I'm gonna forgive that. Thank you. Love you. Bye.