Let's start the podcast. Alright. But before we started this, we were in a deep discussion about whether or not we should have a theme song. We were yelling at the top of our lungs at each other. In my mind that it was verbalized. Okay. But should we should we have a theme song? Should it be like should it have lyrics? And should I wrap it? Okay, here, let's just try it. Okay. Midweek podcast coming at you. What what should be the lyrics? Can you do it off the top of your head? No. Okay, here we go. Yeah. No, come on. Have you seen that video of that guy? It's kind of a funny like internet meme. He's on some local show and he's like, uh, say, I'm gonna do uh Oh yes. You know what I'm talking about? Just some He's like just some uh what's it called? It's uh spoken word. No, it's not spoken word. He has a freestyle freestyle. He's gonna freestyle. And she's like, all right, you're gonna freestyle. He used to have me at the They used to have me. He just freezes. Yes. And just he goes, This is this is live, right? This is live, right? And then and then the lady goes, Do you want to read something from your book? And he's like, Yes. It's so awesome. Maybe we can play the clip.

You're going to do a spoken word for us now, right?

Right.

And uh tell us what we're about to hear. It's just a freestyle. Okay. I'm just gonna think it out as a freestyle. Well, let me sit back. Go ahead, Marshall. Okay. Years ago, they tried it. Years ago, they tried it. Put me in it. This is last. Did you want to try to read something from your book? Yeah. Okay.

But yeah, so if we have a theme song, we'll it'll not be you rap coming in the middle of the week. It's designed for all the people who seek answers about what we do. And that's great. So today we are talking about how to responsibly interpret scripture. Boom. Or how to like have um it's four words. I don't know what to tell you. We've got a four-word little guide that has been a useful tool for us to help us responsibly interpret scripture. So something that I say pretty often, and a lot of these, by the way, a lot of these topics come from our newcomer gatherings, and people ask questions and they're like, oh, okay. Um, a phrase that I've used a lot in newcomer gatherings over the years, especially in the last two years, when it comes to how our church operates biblically, what our theology is, is that I believe that scripture, responsibly interpreted and lovingly applied, is always what we need. Um, because it's possible to interpret scripture really well, but then apply it really lovingly. Like you're more concerned with no having the right answers than actually helping people know Jesus. You don't care about it. Unlovingly, you mean. Yeah, yeah, correct. Yeah, you can not apply it, but not in a loving way. And it's just harsh and like the picket sign where it's like technically that sign is right, maybe. There you go. You know, but it's like, what's the point of this picket sign? Is it exactly and then on the flip side, you can be really loving, but also just have really wishy-washy or or maybe that's not the right word, just your scripture interpretation, just whatever I think people will like. Or whatever fits that loving application in whatever specific context. Yeah, so can we do both? Right. And that's our challenge to do that. And obviously, just by saying that, scripture we we recognize, we call it scripture. It is God inspired, it is true. Whether it plays with the values of our culture today or not, doesn't really matter. What God communicates in scripture is truth you can build your life on, and we are accountable to that truth. We believe it's inspired and and comes from the Lord. Not that people went into a trance and woke up and are like, What how did this document get here? But God worked in the in in them and through them, the Holy Spirit inspired everything in Scripture. Um so, with that said, though, there is uh while that is very clear, where you're like, Yeah, this is God's word, right? We're gonna uh treat it with a high level of respect and dignity. It has authority. Yeah, it has authority. There we go. Correct. Uh at the same time, it was written very, very long time ago. There's lots of cultural nuance, there's just lots of uh, I guess, interpretive nuance where you go, like, yeah, is this something that applied to this specific group of people? I don't know how to uh measure what Jesus says here. Is this him talking to Peter? Is this Jesus talking to me? How do we negotiate all of those? 100%. And the truth is, people have taken scripture out of context and used the truth of scripture for all kinds of things to come to conclusions that are completely heretical, you could even say, right. Uh, completely outside of what it actually teaches. So we try our best, and obviously we're not perfect, but we try our best to interpret scripture responsibly. And I don't that what that has led to is not this list of doctrines that these are the correct doctrines. Right. Uh what it has led to, though, at least at this point in our in our church's history, is some words that help us navigate that process. So when we come up to an issue and a topic, we can say, are we interpreting this responsible way? Yeah. And those four four words are, you know them. They are absolutes, boom, interpretations, convictions, right, and preferences. Ding ding ding. I used a different agreeable phrase or or sound to signify each other. I appreciate it. It was boom. Yes, right, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. So one more time without those distractions. Absolutes, interpretations, convictions, and preferences. Yeah. And so absolutes are sort of the things that all Christians, no matter what, would agree on. Should. Yeah, right. Right. Well, if they disagree, there'd be some question. Yeah, I would say well, on an absolute. You can have personal motives to take an absolute and try to say it's not an absolute. Sure. You can say, I don't like that. Right. So that's where that's where heresy comes in. Yeah. When someone takes an absolute, something that God is moves it crystal clear about. And that's what I look at. God is actually clear about a lot of things in the Bible. There are certain things that it's less clear on. We'll talk about that when we get to interpretations. But there's just so many things where Jesus leaves no wiggle room. It's clearly spoken. It might be hard to swallow. Sure. But it's or maybe even the application of that idea might fall into like a you do it this way, we do it this way. Right. But the idea itself, that is crystal clear. It's crystal clear. Something like what? God made the world. Yeah. God is the creator of the universe. Uh, Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God. Only way to salvation. That Jesus Christ alone holds the keys to salvation, that is only by surrendering your life to Jesus that you can have a relationship with God and the Holy Spirit can be like those are right. So like if you surrendered any of those ideas, you'd be like, no, well, it's like, well, there's other ways to Jesus. You'd be like, that's probably not a Christian idea. For example, the very first heresies in the history of Christianity very often were weren't super nuanced. They were major, like like some of the first heresies had to do with whether or not Jesus was a human or God. And it was hard for people to see both together in part because of how Greek philosophy worked. And they grew up in a world where material world, flesh, bad, spirit world, God good. Those two things can't go together. Right. Right. And so a lot of the earliest heresies were either A, Jesus didn't actually have a body, he just pretended to, he was God pretending to be a person. It was like an angel manifesting itself. Looking, yeah. Or B, he wasn't really God, he was a man. And so scripture is absolute that he's both. That God was incarnate, became a man. And so to say either of those is to go against an absolute statement in Scripture. Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. That's an absolute statement. And they can also apply to even moral standards. There are certain behaviors that scripture, every time it talks about it, Old Testament, New Testament, no matter the context, it's clear, yeah, this is not okay. Like if I were to have an affair on my wife, I cannot justify it anywhere in the Bible. Yeah. I can't say, well, yeah, but I mean, I'm doing this because really. Right. You know. Which I mean, this is where it's getting to some again, it's still nuance, even though it's an absolute. So affair on wife, but didn't the kings of Israel have multiple wives? Wouldn't that be considered a this is why we're doing this podcast because we eat in the weeds. So not everything the Bible records does it condone. Sure. Right. So just because David had concubines, right, that was not something that God ever said. Yeah. And I recommend there is some R-rated murder in the Bible by the people of God in contexts where you'd be like, what is going on? Even at times where you think God's really for it. Right. So it's interesting. A great example that would be King David, where he wants to build a temple that God actually never asks for. And but he just keeps, I want to build temple, temple. And God actually says to David, you know what? Fine. But you can't build it because you got a lot of blood on your hands. And it's like, well, hold on, God, I've been fighting, I think I thought it was for you in your wars against your enemies. And the reality is, God's like, yeah, I don't like that so much. So it's, it's, it's tough. Um, but not all, not everything that scripture records does it condone. So that's something a lot of people like to do when they want to have a gotcha moment with a Christian, is to say, hey, well, so look at this. And it's like, yeah, the Bible recorded that. It's actually beautifully honest about the faults of its what you're pointing out is the story of Scripture. You're not pointing out the character of God or the command of God. Correct. Um, and so what I'm saying is there are things that God says, never do this, right? This is wrong. And there's no context where you can say that's not an absolute. I kind of see that as like an option.

Right.

Um, so the absolutes, I would say don't be, don't overthink it. Yeah. They're clear. And if you find yourself having to do some mental gymnastics to try to, if you ever hear a teacher who's like, actually, if you think about it this way, it makes you realize that it's the total opposite of what you think it says. It's like, that's a major caution. God is very clear about the absolutes most of the time. And if someone said, hey, there's an exception to that, fine. Um, but yeah, the absolutes are most of those are included in like the pretty famous Christian creeds and you know, website. If you go to any church website, it's like one of the first, like what we believe. You know, it's like those things that are that are there. And even you mentioned creeds, like the the Nicene Creed, an early creed, and the the purpose of that creed and its development was to have, hey guys, we need to establish the absolutes. The absolutes because we're living in a time when scripture's not as readily readily available to everybody. There's all kinds of factors there, but it was like these are the things that that really matter, specifically in those creeds, in relation to wasn't so much when we promised we're gonna live this way, it wasn't moral behavior, it was who God is and what it means to worship God and to serve God. Like that's very much that. And so those are the absolutes. Then in like I guess this goes in uh descending level of importance, correct. Under absolutes is interpretations, yes. So what is an what what why do we use that word, and what are some things that would be interpretations? Sure. So interpretations would be these are things in the Bible that seem to communicate a certain idea, but you can also find other scriptures that seem to communicate a different idea. Um a classic one theologically would be like predestination versus free will. Right. Okay. So uh you made a face. I'm just laughing because it's like, let's just get into it. Well, that's like probably if I say that one because when I was in high school, that was the argument among really passionate Christians was are you, you know, are you a Calvinist? Are you predestination focused? Meaning that uh people are born and they're already, it's already decided an election. It's an election, yeah. God chose you before birth, even you're going to be one of mine, and others you're not. And you really don't have a say in that matter. It's just and there's interesting ideas there, you know, like if my kids open the fridge and they pull out a squeezy, which is like a little applesauce packet. Oh, okay. That's what we what do you guys call them? We call them squeezy pouches. Squeezy pouches, okay. We call them squeeze. I didn't know if a squeezy was like a go-gurt. Let's go, let's just say, yeah, a yogurt pouch, whatever. Yogurt pouch. What's something? A cheese stick. A cheese stick. Okay, there we go. That's a normal thing. If my kids open up the fridge and pull out a cheese stick to eat, did they choose the cheese stick? They did. Or did I? But you did. I put it in the fridge. Right. So they might believe I made this choice, but actually I made that choice for them. And there's a lot of like philosophical, interesting ideas with Yeah. Interpretations are always fun to talk about and argue about in like the like spirited debate mode. But what you're saying is scripture actually kind of backs up both of those. It does. So a great example of this with predestination of free will. So predestination is God makes all this free will is people of their own volition choose to follow God and and they have a choice, they have a say in the matter. They choose God or they choose not. Correct. Yeah. And so you can find scripture that you can actually find Ephesians chapter one is like both. Paul writes and he says that we uh you're you're going to it. That's good. You have the right tool with you. Um, do you want to read a little section of Ephesians one? Yeah. Go for it. Where am I saying? Where am I? Okay, here we go. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Uh, in love, he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the beloved. I keep going, because there's very predestination right now. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ, as a uh plan for the fullness of time to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory. All right. So right up until that last part, it's like clear doctrine. Yeah, we were predestined before the foundations of the earth, like we, we okay. And then he adds this little line, and you too were added to you also when you heard or believed. Yep. And so it's like you have both there. And so many people would say, when he's who's the we and who's the you, he would say, many would say that the we was the Jewish people. Like the Jews were predestined, like Jews were born into this, born into this, but then you, when you heard and believed, the Gentiles, you were added. But my point is in this one chapter, you start reading it and it's like predestination, oh, clear. But then all of a sudden there's this thing, and it's like, whoa, another thing with predestination would typically be that people can't reject Jesus. Like if Jesus genuinely called you, you can't genuinely reject him. Right. And then the rich young ruler is really interesting because Jesus makes the exact same call to the rich young ruler that he made to Peter, same same language. Uh, he says he loved him and he says, now come follow me. He says, just like he said to Peter and the fisherman, lay down your nets, I'll make you fishers of men. He tells the rich man, sell all your possessions, I'll give you treasure in heaven. It's like the same idea, now come follow me. And that guy doesn't. So which the interpretation there, which would be like the torrent twisting things around, is like, well, Jesus was kind of doing like a Jedi mind trick. He never really was asking the guy. He knew he was doing it as a object lesson for the people around him, which I mean, Jesus can work on multiple levels, but you're saying there's the support is there for both. The support's there for both, and it depends on how you interpret it. I'll give you a more practical one for our church, and this might be more controversial depending on who's listening, but the role of women in the church. Sure. And can women teach? So that's one of those that I can find, you know, we can go to Paul in the New Testament and find Paul very explicitly saying Do not permit a woman to exercise authority over a man. Right. That's a pretty like well, that's an absolute, right? Right, right. How can you get more absolute? Right. And then you go, and this is where it gets interesting with interpretations, and you have to be careful not to do this with so okay, this is important. If it's an absolute, it's going to be anytime that subject comes up in scripture, it's going to be clear about it. Scripture never gets wishy-washy about who Jesus is. Jesus is not, he says, I'm the Son of God, like he's he's clear on that. Um, you know, he he is God, he calls God Father, he's the way, the truth, and the life. And then in the New Testament, that claim is only added to and and expanded upon as they think that through. It's never like correct. Um, you know, things like murder. That's never, you know, we we can go there. Interpretations are going to be that depending on where you're looking, context context matters. So, for example, women, the role of women in in God's kingdom, okay, in the church, whatever. Well, you can also see examples in the New Testament of women who played very pivotal roles, even teaching roles. So when Apollo, Apollos uh became a follower of Jesus, he is known as a leader in the early church. He may have written the book of Hebrews, we don't know who wrote it. Some people think it was him, but he was he's named as an incredibly influential person in the early church. We just don't know a whole lot about him. Um, but it says that Priscilla and Aquila taught him about like early on in his faith, they discipled him. And it actually mentions Priscilla, the woman, first. Priscilla and Aquila were a husband and wife, and Priscilla is almost always mentioned first, which is odd in their culture. Um, and so you have this man, Apollos, coming to Jesus, and Priscilla and Aquila are instructing him. Right. So that's like, oh, well, hold on. That's it, where does that go? Then you go Old Testament and you go Deborah. She was the judge of Israel. She's literally the God-ordained leader of the nation of Israel, and she leads them well. She's not even, there's a lot of judges that are not good. She's like one of the good ones that we have. And she was the God-ordained leader of the nation of Israel. And then you look at, for me, the big one is always Jesus. I think whenever you interpret scripture well, because we're trying to interpret it, right? These are interpretations. You want to look at the whole of scripture, the context. Um, context matters. We mentioned the whole, I don't do not permit a woman to have authority. You have to ask, is this descriptive or prescriptive? Is it describing all people for all time, or is it for this group of people for that time? Because some of what Paul was writing to was very, very targeted to that group of people. Anyway, you look at Jesus, he's where it all comes together. I look at the whole of scripture, the context, and I mainly look at the person of Jesus because he is like, he's like putting glasses on. What's fuzzy becomes more clear. The very first person Jesus ever entrusted the gospel message to, ultimately, that he is risen from the dead, right? The the core, maybe it's not the gospel, the resurrection message. Very first person that he ever entrusted that message to be delivered to was a woman. First person that ever walked into a room and said, He's risen. Jesus is alive, yeah. Was a woman. That's crazy. And so you go, okay, well, that's not nothing. And at the very least, uh, Mike Winger is an he's I, in my opinion, does a you've watched a lot of Mike Winger, I'm sure. On YouTube. Great YouTube. If you want to watch like a 10-hour video about a random topic in the Bible, he's pretty good. Correct. Deep dive on stuff, and he's very thorough. And he actually would have a different conclusion, I think, on the women teaching than than I do. However, he would, I think, agree with us that it's an interpretation. Yeah. That to come to this conclusion, it's not about, well, duh, just look what it says. So based on that interpretation, in good faith, you would allow a woman to teach at his hands. Correct. Uh, but you wouldn't fault someone to come for coming to a different conclusion. And that might just be like a like we do church differently than you do church. Correct. And that's that's all right. Right. Um, so then but beneath the interpretations comes convictions. Convictions are deeply held personal beliefs that are often informed greatly by what we uh see as the absolutes and interpretations, but it's a personal thing. Sure. It's a personal thing. Paul writes about this a lot when it came to like meet sacrifice to idols. If you have a personal conviction that that's wrong, right, live by it. But don't force that on other people. Right. And then also be aware of others' convictions if your freedom might be something that causes them to sin. So, like alcohol, for example. Correct. That's like a pretty easy one, easy conviction. I I drink, but I have neighbors who struggle. So if I have neighbors who struggle and I'm like, hey, come on over to my house for dinner, I'm not going to offer them a drink because I know that they struggle. And they they have the conviction of like I let's even take it a different way. They struggle. Maybe they've had issues with alcohol in the past. What if it was someone that didn't struggle with it? They've never been an alcoholic, but they have a deep conviction that alcohol is wrong. Right. Would you crack a beer in front of them? No, I don't think so. Because you would be at that point in that situation, you would say, I actually feel like I'm more freed up. Right. Which is actually the more mature view of faith that. Paul describes, but this person has a deep conviction. Me drinking a beer right now is not right. It does not take precedence over I it's not worth it. I think the hard thing though in those scenarios is knowing someone well enough to know those convictions. Well, and that's where it goes. If you don't know, oh I'm so I would just say, Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, no. Right. Yeah. So convictions are interesting because I think in church culture it's very easy, especially for pastors and leaders, to have a strong conviction and then to put that on every everyone else should do it this way. And I've seen um, I won't name the person, but we've had conversations like uh a pretty well-known pastor, and so if it's people put the dots together, fine. But like there's a pastor that got on this kick about how you shouldn't ever say the Bible says something, you should only say that James says it or John says it. Right. Okay. Don't say the Bible says, say first John says. And I I get that idea, like okay, but that became something really quickly that like everyone should do that. Right. You're wrong if you say the Bible says. And it's like, hold on. You have a personal conviction about sort of separating out and being more specific, but that's not something that other and if that's your conviction, cool, right? Do it. But that to to say that now you're wrong if you don't do that, that that's not. Yeah, and there may be wisdom, there may be wisdom in the conviction. Even you might have been even supernaturally told by God about the conviction to say, like, hey, this isn't this isn't for you. Like you have maybe, I don't know, like a random one is like video games. Like I know people who it's like, no, we just don't do video games at our house. It's like, huh, okay. Like, and that's between them and the Lord. And maybe it comes out of like, hey, I think these are just a waste of time or whatever it is. We do video games, but only really violent ones. Only the most violent. The most I'm trying to think of another one. No, no, I know I think it's a great example. Um it is like Disney movies, okay? So Disney as a corporation has a lot of stuff. We got free destin predestination, Disney World, got Disney movies here and then. But the point is like I've known people that had a really hard stance that we don't watch Disney movies. Sure. Because Disney as a company has very often championed cultural movements that are very much not uh in line with with our faith, but also a lot of people would argue family-friendly values. Sure. Like, isn't Disney supposed to be a family-friendly company? And that, what does family friendly even mean? Right. And that's fine. So if if a person said, uh we don't watch Disney movies because we think that Disney uh does some pretty subversive things to kind of cool. You wouldn't have those their kids over to your house and intentionally show them a Disney movie right after. I wouldn't be sensitive to that. But I also wouldn't um if I was that person that had that and I walked into someone's home and they had Disney movies on the shelf. Yeah. I wouldn't be like found out they have a Disney Plus subscription, or they have a Mickey Mouse t-shirt. It would be wrong of me to be like sinner. Like you know, and I had a guy, when I was in high school, I uh I had a buddy that did worship and I I talked. And so we would go to do uh FCA meetings, Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and we were like kind of a duo. He would do a couple worship songs, I would give a message. And I I had a Abercrombie and Fitch was a big brand. When I was in high school, they were like the it brand. I don't know if they're still in the mall, but I don't see yeah, who cares? Yeah. But back then people did. And I had this Abercrombie and Fitch sweatshirt my mom had gotten me for Christmas, and I wore it. And this guy, teacher, he was one of the sponsors, came up to me and he was like, Hey man, that was a great message, but totally lost all of its relevance because you're sitting there wearing an Abercrombie and Fitch shirt. And you know that company they they had some pretty scandalous uh catalogs. Well, and they were pretty like gross about like having shirtless guys outside their stores and stuff. Yeah. And I mean, I hadn't thought that deeply about it. Right. And I decided about it. Yeah. But at the very least, that that guy had a personal conviction about you shouldn't wear this brand because whatever. I saw it as clothing. Yeah. And my mom got me it as a gift. So I could say it was rude if I don't wear it because my mom point is that's a conviction trying to be forced upon someone else. That's not the purpose of convictions. Convictions are deeply held personal beliefs that are meant to guide you. And if you uh go against your convictions, it's actually sin because you're doing what you think is wrong, even if it's not. Right. Even if it's not commanded in scripture. You you believe it's wrong and you're doing it anyway. And I I've gone against my own convictions many times. And it's a really loving way for God to set things up because if God had sat there and listed out every permutation of what could possibly be right or wrong, this book would be like this. It'd be a lot bigger, it'd be a lot more intense. It'd be like a resource reference, and maybe it'd be easier in some ways, but it actually gives some room for you say deeply held personal beliefs. I think it also gives some room for those to be seasonal, where it's like, hey, for this season in my life, I feel like God is calling me to uh not have a phone. And it's like maybe two years from now I do, or maybe watching this certain kind of movie or whatever it is. It's like it's not wrong. I wouldn't say Christian, all Christians shouldn't watch horror movies or whatever it is, but for me right now, I'm tapping out because I think the Lord's calling me to something else. I really don't like horror movies, by the way. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah, I actually have a personal conviction about it. Right. I used to think horror movies were awesome. Right. I watched them when I was in like it was cool to watch them in high school, maybe even college, but I was in college, I watched a horror movie, and it hit me personally really deeply. I am smiling. Right. I'm feeling joy at this incredibly macabre death of a person. That's not, and I never I haven't watched horror movies since I saw one horror movie, but it was like semi-horror. Yeah. There's lots of things that are like on the code. So the point is, but I don't if someone was like, hey, we're watching this movie, like, I don't want to do that. But that's a personal conviction. And then the last one Preferences. This stuff doesn't matter at all. Get over it. But often we elevate our preferences. So the main way I've seen it in church is music, music style. Like hymns versus electric guitar versus um there's all kinds of things. And look, you can make you could actually take an interpretation approach to music for sure. Um, there's not a lot of scripture in the Bible about worship musically. There's a lot of tradition. Sure. So the phrase a cappella literally means in the style of the church. So churches did not do instrumentation for like way over a thousand years. Yeah. That was viewed as what pagans do pagans beat drums and like do all this where it's just voices, that a cappella means oh, like the church. So doing instrumentation, all that is kind of a newer thing. Um, but at the very least it's an interpretation. But I think in our current modern culture, for a lot of people, when they when they make that argument about how they want music to be different, they're not saying, hey, listen, based on the tradition of our faith and the history, of they're just going, I like this song better. Sure. You know? Yeah. Um and it's amazing how often churches get in all kinds of crazy stuff over there. Yeah. And but I think there's a there's a time and a place for preferences. And it might be like when you move to a new area and you are also searching for a church. If you're deciding between two churches, that's like, oh, all of the absolutes, interpretations, even some of my convictions, like they apply to both of these churches. I kind of just like the pews versus the sure. There's no it's not wrong to have a preference. Right. But um, if you elevate your preferences above those other things. So for example, if you read a church and the absolutes weren't right, the interpretations, all that, but you're like, I just really like the right. I I like this the voice of that guy who sings. I just like his voice. Yeah. That would be silly. I think also church size dynamics might be like in the preference. I think that's the best example you could have. That's how big is a church? I I think you nailed it. That's the perfect thing, is I prefer a church that is this size. What's funny is we're in this weird world where we're like the biggest small church or the smallest big church. So we have Marge or medium. We are, we are. And so every Sunday and then at like a newcomer event, someone will be like, Yeah, you know, we were so smaller. And they were at like a 10,000-person church, and now they're here. Yeah. Or it'll be someone who's like, Yeah, you know, we just wanted our kids to be part of something a little bigger and have more, and they were part of so we find ourselves in both of that. But that is just preference. That's saying you could be at a church that has great absolutes, interpretations, convictions, but you just you'd like it if the youth program met on Wednesdays and that's they're not wrong. Just don't elevate them right above the other level. And if you're really deeply committed at a church and it's you've got community and you've got relationship and all that, be really careful. You can bear with the preferences being off prolonged seasons. I've known people who have made moves based on a just a preferential thing, and it's amazing how often they never actually get as involved. They thought, like, we'll just go to this other place because it fits our preferences better. But what ends up happening is they never get as deeply rooted and involved there. Right. And it's like you probably should just work through that. So anyway. So absolutes, interpretations, convictions, preferences, and preferences. That's those are the words that guide us when we encounter any issue, something's brought to our attention, or I'm teaching through scripture. I kind of help, how can I quickly ascertain whether or not it's an absolute? And if it is an absolute, I just gotta is what it is. You have to share it boldly. If it's an interpretation, you have to reveal the moves you made. If it's a conviction, you may have to tell the story of why you arrived at that conclusion. Yeah, but usually you probably table those. Yeah, for the most part. Like they're they're not coming out super or you call them what they are. You say, hey, this is just a conviction of mine. That's like when Paul says, like, if I had it my way, everyone would be single. Everyone's single, but it's like I say Paul, not the Lord. Correct. Versus the Lord says that's a kind of a good way to communicate that. Yeah. And then preferences, it's just it's just those are usually apparent. They are. They are. But I think those words are really helpful because a lot of the times we don't actually categorize or a lot of them can just be feelings. Sure. And something can hit me wrong and I don't like it. Well, why don't I like it? Which one of those is it? And that helps me go, oh, it's not a big deal, or it is a really big deal. It also gives categories for conversation of saying, How seriously are we going to take this conversation? Because if we're me and you are having a conversation over convictions, that's kind of like living in a different category. Like you can totally uh disagree with me entirely, and I feel completely freed up. But even working at a church, yeah, if we super disagree on interpretation, it's like, well, I need to go on kind of like a little spiritual journey there, like to process that. 100%. And we've gone through all those. It's funny, I had another thought of a preference one, sort of like I had a guy who was here and he really was like, I wish you wouldn't play any music underneath you talking ever, which we really only do during Lord's Supper. Yeah. I have that preference. You have that preference, right? But then like Matt, who leads our worship team, I've talked to him about it, and he really likes there being cohesion. Sure. So for him, it's actually a way that the worship can like transition isn't just like a thing, okay. Check that box, we've done worship now. Right. There's something that glues things together, and it's like both are fine. Right. You know, like I say, I have that preference. I don't really care that much. So Matt will actually text me on Sundays, hey, do you want us to pad underneath the baby dedications? And I'll be like, no. Right. Or sometimes I'll be like, yeah. It just sort of depends on the moment. But yeah, okay, cool. So those are the four words, and then we'll figure out the theme song or not. All right. Goodbye, everybody. Bye.