His Hands Church
His Hands Church
Cutting Room Floor - Matthew 11 - John the Baptist
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What's going on, Madison? Hi. How are you doing? Good. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I am I am tired. It is Monday, today after Sunday. You just preached a message yesterday. Trevor Burrus, Jr. I did.
SPEAKER_02A whole message. I had said I thought that yesterday went really well, and you said if I could do it again, there's a bunch I'd do different in the message.
SPEAKER_01Oh, not a bunch. Just uh No, not like a bunch. Just one probably one little thing, but that's how it is almost every time. Sure. You probably have the same thing when you teach. Right. Yeah. Which is why we do this thing we're doing right now every once in a while called the cutting room floor, where we take uh a message that we we taught on and said, hey, there's some stuff that didn't quite make it into the cut. And sometimes that's on purpose, and other times it's after the fact. You're like, I should have said this. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Did you know over the weekend that we were going to have this? Like as you were prepping the message, you were like, oh, we're going to do this. Because you you called me and you were like, we need to talk about podcast something. And then we never we never touched base again. And I was like, No, I made this decision on Saturday.
SPEAKER_01I was writing it and I started to like there's just uh the what we covered had a lot of stuff you could you could you know you could go in a lot of different directions with. And I was starting to go through some of that stuff and I was like, no, this would be good to just this is good to set to the side. And so we we talked about John the Baptist. And when he sends disciples to Jesus to say, hey, are you really the Messiah? Because John's in prison. He doesn't probably think that's the way this is going to go, as he's, you know, one of the things.
SPEAKER_02I shouldn't be in prison if you're the Messiah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm the one that I'm the prophet that kind of paved the way for you. I kind of imagined I would be by your side at the forefront of this new kingdom, and didn't think I would be here. And uh and so we just kind of talked about Jesus' response to John the Baptist and really using it as a framework to understand how we deal with honestly, disappointment with God sometimes. Sometimes we feel like God is not living up to what we expected him to do. Um and John sort of seems like that's it's that we don't can't read his mind, but it seems like that's what he's doing. The only thing I would change in the message is I had these three things. I said, look, when you're when your expectations of God uh aren't met, you should examine your expectations, find out where they actually came from. Um you should adjust the expectations, and the biggest thing is just let them go and realize that God always does unexpected things. Some of those unexpected things are gonna be hard, some of them are gonna be like, wow, that's amazing. Um, but God just refuses to abide by our expectations all throughout Scripture. The one thing I would change is I I would have said, go to Jesus, because John's He did do the right thing by Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like it and it's kind of assumed. He didn't just give up in prison and correct and let go of his expectations. He sent, he was like, I'm gonna go to Jesus to clarify.
SPEAKER_01So that's what I would probably go back and make four and say, number one, go to Jesus. Right. Number two, examine the origins of those, because you know, Jesus was really up front with his disciples about following him would be hard, there would be persecution. He didn't promise rosy wealth or you know, it wasn't like rosy circumstances and all that.
SPEAKER_02In the midst of all of that, he seems very open to questions. Correct. Like he's not like shutting people down all the time. Sometimes he's like, that's not for me to know. I don't even know that, so I can't really give you a appropriate answer.
SPEAKER_01He's like, I'm not playing this game. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But for his followers and for the people he loved, there was not a um a distancing there when it comes to clarifying what he's saying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's not the kind of teacher that you're afraid to raise your hand and ask a question. Because yeah, 100%. But that, yeah, so that's probably the only thing I would have changed. But I really enjoyed that message. I think it's one of those things that um it's it it as more I thought about it, like, yeah, it is very easy to get disappointed in God. And I know a lot of people who have I say a lot, I definitely know people that I can think of right now that kind of have abandoned their faith the moment something didn't especially something big in life, maybe a death or their marriage fell apart, something like that. It didn't go the way that they wanted it to go, and maybe they had prayed about it. And because they didn't get what they wanted, they're like, I'm done with God. And uh I don't think John the Baptist was at that I don't think he was there. Right. But a lot of people get there, and uh I thought it was a really relevant message.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, and so that's what you would have done differently specifically for the message you gave, but going into it, you knew certain aspects of this scripture just is too much to get into.
SPEAKER_01It's such an interesting conversation. And so, like, okay, I'll open up Matthew uh 11 is where we're at. And so uh, you know, John the Baptist sends his disciples to say, Hey, are you the Messiah? Are you the one we've been expecting? Or should we look for somebody else? And he says, Look, tell John, the blind see, the lame walk, those with leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised to life, the good news is being preached to the poor. He's pulling from like Isaiah and some other he's kind of doing a grab bag of different prophetic things from the Old Testament. Um, and he adds, God blesses those who do not fall away because of me. And then Jesus starts to talk about John, and he says, What kind of man did you uh go into the wilderness to see? Was he a weak reed swayed by every breath of wind, or were you expecting to see a man dressed in expensive clothes? No. People with expensive clothes live in palaces. Were you looking for a prophet? Yes. And he's more than a prophet. John is the man to whom the scriptures refer when they say, Look, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, and he will prepare your way before you. I tell you the truth, of all who have ever lived, none is greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least person in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he is. And from the time John the Baptist began preaching until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and violent people are attacking it. For before John came, all the prophets in the law of Moses look forward to this present time. And if you're willing to accept what I say, he is Elijah, the one the prophets said would come. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand. To what can I compare this generation? It is like children playing a game in the public square. They complain to their friends, we played wedding songs, you didn't dance, we played funeral songs, you didn't mourn. For John didn't spend his time eating and drinking, and you say he's possessed by a demon. The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say he's a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners. But wisdom is shown to be right by its results.
SPEAKER_02And so um So there's two kind of there's a lot there, but two of the more puzzling things you kind of pointed them out on Sunday, but the one that immediately jumps to me is the least John is least in the kingdom of heaven. Right. No one maybe which verse is that? Verse um 11. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he is. And then the other one that's somewhat confusing and maybe takes some just like I don't know if it's Bible trivia or just uh wisdom and insight into scripture and into what Jesus is saying is the Elijah stuff.
SPEAKER_01The Elijah stuff. Yeah, and those are the two things primarily that I was like, didn't get into. Um so yeah, you wanna get what is I mean, what's your familiarity with some of that stuff?
SPEAKER_02So there's another passage where uh Jesus is transfigured and Elijah is there. Correct. So there's the the Elijah moment. That's yep. There's the Elijah moment where Jesus references like the prophets that came before and they still I might be conflating something, but look what they did to those prophets and their rejection of them and whatnot. And then doesn't someone else call? Oh, who do people say that I am? Some say Elijah. John the Baptist. John the Baptist, right? Who and some say Elijah, some say Elijah.
SPEAKER_01And then you even have like Revelation where there's the two witnesses that uh Elijah and Moses are often who that's it may do it directly say that it's Elijah and Moses? Maybe it does, but at the very least that's what's talked about. I I should know that, but you know. Um yeah, no, and so uh I don't think Jesus is saying that he's Elijah. He's not like the spirit of Elijah. Well, maybe so. It's not like a ghost. No, or John or John the Baptist. Sorry, yeah. Yeah. John the Baptist is not Elijah. So he's referencing a scripture, it's Malachi, very last book of the Old Testament, uh very last like you know, Malachi uh five, four, uh sorry, four five. And Malachi four five says, Look, I am sending you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. His preaching will turn hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, otherwise I will come and strike the land with a curse. So that was like an expectation. It's like the cliffhanger that the Old Testament ends off with. Yeah. Like so they're waiting for Elijah. Um and Elijah is gonna somehow sort of uh bring in the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is this concept we see in the Old Testament a lot in the New Testament. But essentially, um the Jewish people believed, and the scriptures taught, that there's actually multiple days of the Lord, but the day of the Lord is a phrase that essentially says like um like this fulcrum moment where before judgment takes place, before like God maybe it's an empire full collapses. You know, you could actually say that maybe like Passover was a day of the Lord for the Egyptians, right? Before something big changes. And so the big day of the Lord they're all looking forward to is the Messiah coming, and and everyone's like, well, Elijah's got to come first. And so Jesus is saying that, yeah, that that is the role that John the Baptist fulfilled, that he is that Elijah, not actually Elijah. The prophet the same person.
SPEAKER_02Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's like the I'm trying to think of the uh the not churchy word to say like the mantle. You know what I mean? Exactly. The role that that Elijah played is being played out in a similar way.
SPEAKER_01And and someone even say he has the same the same spirit, and not the same spirit like the literal spirit of Elijah is his spirit. Trevor Burrus The same calling and purpose and mission. Same you know, and we say okay, it's like I'm so sorry, because it's just what comes to mind. It's like basketball. Okay. Do you know who Michael Jordan is? So there you go. Kobe Bryant. You know who Kobe Bryant is? Yes. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I know you're not a basketball guy. Yeah, no, I'm I'm there. So Michael Jordan is like when Lil Bow puts on the shirt. Yeah, well Lil Bow becomes like Mike. He has the spirit of Jordan's going with. Is that really where you're going? But that's maybe better.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, no, like the point is that there have been people, so okay, Kobe Bryant came after Michael Jordan and they had a little overlap, but like he just reminded people of Michael. He looked, he he played like Michael. When he moved, he looked like Michael. And you can actually people have taken video footage, and like here's Michael doing a certain move, and then there's Kobe, and it's like the same person almost. Like it's it's eerie. And so sometimes someone comes along and you're like, man, it's almost like you are that person. And so um that's what I think Jesus was referencing. And you actually mentioned the Mount of Transfiguration, where Jesus goes up on the mountaintop um with his uh few of his disciples, Peter James and James. Peter James and John, the closest three, and then he's transfigured into his glorified self, like what the version of him we'll see in heaven. And Moses and Elijah are there, and he's talking to Moses and Elijah. Right. And that you would the way it indicates that that that is Moses and Elijah. Yeah. Like in heaven, essentially. Right. John the Baptist is his own.
SPEAKER_02And it's another it's another like uh skewed, not skewed, I don't know what the word is, but it's another fulfillment of the Malachi thing because there's the John the Baptist playing the role of Elijah, but then there's for Peter, James, and John witnessing the actual Elijah in the presence of And we see a lot of that in scripture, like in Romans, it talks about how Jesus is the second Adam.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's like he kind of steps into the role of Adam and redoes things. And so, you know, um, yeah, it's there's a prophecy in Malachi that before the Messiah comes, Elijah would come to sort of prepare the people to prepare the way. Right. And Jesus is saying, a lot of everyone was wondering that, is this what this guy is? And and John the Baptist said, like, I'm here to prepare the way for one who is greater. Like Jesus is basically going, Yes, you are correct. Yeah, it's such an interesting that was John. Right. That was John, which means I am the Messiah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And to respond to you know, when like a question's asked, and even if it's not the question asker, there's kind of like doubt in the mind kind of springs up all around the crowd. Right. And so John's disciples come to Jesus and ask, like, are you the Messiah or should we be waiting for someone else? And he gives the clarifying Elijah thing. And so it's like it's almost like he's responding to, yes, the followers of John, but anyone else that's listening. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01His own followers would have been there for that as well. That's cool. It is really cool. It is really cool.
SPEAKER_02Anything about Elijah, like the actual prophet that is special compared to another prophet? Like why is Elijah the one Malachi picks out?
SPEAKER_01Aaron Powell Well, I mean, Elijah's obviously one of the more famous prophets. Um the thing about Elijah that's so interesting is that in his story in the Old Testament, he doesn't technically die.
SPEAKER_02He's swept away.
SPEAKER_01Uh well, that's so there's there's two characters in the Old Testament that depending on how you read it, you could say didn't die. One is uh Enoch. Enoch, and that's the more God just took him. Right. Like he walked with God.
SPEAKER_02There's his chariots of fire is Elijah, right?
SPEAKER_01Elijah gets the the angel Uber. Yeah. Like the red carpet's rolled out. That's a crazy story. Um, and so like, because Elisha or or Elisha, depending on how you pronounce it, uh the prophet that was the protege of Elijah goes with him that day. And basically Elijah tells him, you know, if you see me leave, then God will give you a double portion of my spirit. Right. And that's another interesting parallel. Like, Elisha gets a double portion of Elijah's spirit. Not of Elijah himself, but it's like the same spirit that Elijah carried. And Elijah was just known as um extremely bold, I mean, challenged kings, you know, that kind of thing, which is a something that prophets do pretty often in the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_02Is it Elijah that goes to the Gentiles? Remember, Jesus brings up, or is that Elisha? I get them confused.
SPEAKER_01Well, Elisha went, he healed uh the Gentile of leprosy.
SPEAKER_02That's always like, where did he go first? And then he heals Naaman. Yeah, Naaman is Elijah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Elijah's big I mean Elijah's biggest story is his battle with Ahab and Jezebel. Gotcha. And they're worshiping Baal and all the Baal worshippers on the mountain, and they have the sacrifice, and Elijah's like, they're all doing their, they're cutting themselves and screaming, because that's pagan worship, right? Like soaks the altar down. He's telling them, hey, maybe you're maybe your God's asleep or using the bathroom. So, you know, that's kind of the Elijah, and he he said that it wouldn't rain for three years or something crazy like that. Um but yeah, so because I think he didn't die, he like just rides off into a chariot. I I don't know how that works.
SPEAKER_02Well, there's like a continuation, maybe. And then the Malachi ends with that to be continued, and Jesus is saying, Hey, this is getting wrapped up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's getting so he served that purpose. And that's that's Jesus just uh, I think, in many ways, affirming that he is the Messiah and that John the Baptist, what yeah, hey, you guys, your suspicions are correct. And remember, there hasn't been a prophet in Israel for 400 years. Right. So Malachi, you know, leaves it on that and they're all just kind of waiting for that. So yeah. So there's that, and then there's the other part you mentioned, the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02He is the least in the kingdom of the Bible.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he says, no, no one has ever shined brighter than John.
SPEAKER_02Like John, if you want to make a list, Jesus is basically saying if you want to make a list of all those who have followed God has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist, yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, it's sort of like and this is where it's it's a I've heard a lot of different explanations of this. Um have actually taken that and said, Oh, is John the Baptist not included in the kingdom of heaven? You know what I mean? Like is he is he did he not did he miss the cut? Like maybe he got almost there, but I don't think that's the case at all. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_02is it a connection to the Sermon on the Mount, like saying, like just like this, the least of the least is the greatest. Because if there's this Pharisee, you know, culture where it's like, well, okay, John is another version of a religious figure that's like, oh, he you know, has deprivation, he goes and eats locusts and honey, he's kind of crazy. Like, am I supposed to be like that, or is it Jesus saying, like, hey, even the least of these in the kingdom of heaven, it could be is it one of those moments?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it could be because uh obviously with Jesus, there's so many times that he says things, we're like, well, operating on a couple levels. Yes, there's there's some layers to of depth. I mean, one way to read it too is to recognize that here this is so cool to think about. Take like John the Baptist, Elijah, Moses, Elisha, Ezekiel, you take all these great Jeremiah, these great prophets from the Old Testament. Like those guys would all be considered prophets. Um, David, you could call a prophet as well. And to realize like how much they knew of God, like how intimate they were with God and how close they were with God, and yet none of them actually got the Holy Spirit like we do, right? In the sense that um like all of us as believers have the Spirit inside of us. None of them got to see the cross, none of them got to you could actually make the argument that we know a side of God that none of them even got to know.
SPEAKER_02We've gotten the full picture.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that even those guys, you know, and John, you kind of get this from John, like, hey John, you're you're the greatest that's gone before you, but even you've sort of failed to see that these are really the signs of the Messiah, not just I'm starting a fight with Rome or with the religious leaders. You know what I mean? So basically what I've heard some people interpret that to mean is that even the most basic Jesus follower, if they've really given their lives to Jesus, knows that they know that Jesus Christ died on the cross for their sins, they're totally forgiven, that their he that eternity is secured. John the Baptist didn't get to see that. Right. He didn't get that blessing.
SPEAKER_02He didn't Moses never experienced the Holy Spirit in the way that we do. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01Not in the way we do, or grace or mercy, or the knowledge that I am totally. Yeah, it's not true. Yeah. Even the greatest, even David, you know, I mean, I'm never gonna say, well, I think I'm a better Christian than David was a follower of God or whatever. I mean, David has his flaws and but his my low points maybe haven't been as low as David's as far as the way the world would view him. Trevor Burrus, Jr. You've contributed less to the Bible than they're not much. But my high points have not been nearly as high. So the average is definitely But no, like David didn't know the mercy of God like we know it. He did not live life with the assuredness of salvation and forgiveness. That's why you have uh scriptures like Job 14. I always use it when I do funerals. You know, Job 14, 14, Job, the godliest man on the earth, says, like, if only I could know whether or not there was life after death. So, in a way, we actually have a we have a more full revelation of God, we have a clearer picture of God because of us being on this side of Jesus than even John the Baptist, Moses. Like, we can hang out with them and and we could actually blow Moses' mind if we could sit with the human Moses and be like, dude, but here let me tell you how it's actually going to go down, and the Messiah is gonna come, and you know, because Moses said there will be another like me, but Moses didn't really know what that meant.
SPEAKER_02The fullness, that's why everyone's so confused about who Jesus is, including John the Baptist.
SPEAKER_01And that's where it's like because they're all sort of taking prophecies, and I think it might mean this, and they're coming to certain conclusions, but we actually get to know what that means, and we know that he is this suffering savior and he died for me, and I don't have to live a life sacrificing daily to get God, get on God's good side. Like, I don't have to do that. That is a gift that we have that even the least of us in the kingdom have a blessing greater than John or any of the others ever had.
SPEAKER_02That's which is what's so interesting about the book of Acts and all the letters is like they're processing the the follow-up to all of that to say, like, hey, none of us understood it. Now we see it clearly. What do we do in light of seeing it clearly? Right. And so John died, unfortunately, before that clarity arrived, and the cross arrived and the resurrection.
SPEAKER_01John never probably saw Jesus as the one who like he takes my sins away. Right. Like he Jesus did. Yeah, right. But you know what I'm saying? It's not like we see Jesus through the cross, and that is one of the foremost, it has to be one of the foremost pictures that we have in our minds of Jesus as the one who paid the price for my sin.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01But the others never they never had that. And so in a way you can say, like, man, we even though we don't rank as high in the hierarchy of like John's the high best of the best. But he's still the least. But in the kingdom, like even us just r regular Jesus followers have a we have experienced a revelation of God that is greater than even the best revelation John got, which is really cool to think about.
SPEAKER_02This might crack open what might need to be another conversation, but does obviously theologically the cross goes forward into eternity in terms of its impact.
SPEAKER_01Does it go backwards into eternity? Like, yeah, that's typically the way it's like is John cool?
SPEAKER_02Like he might not have fully recognized it. I guess as a Christian now, there's so much invested in the recognition of my sin and the re receiving the forgiveness that it's like if he didn't recognize that in the same way, the cross goes backwards. It does.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. And obviously, yes, that would be a different that's a whole different conversation. Right. Um but yeah, no, that there is a retroactive aspect to the cross. And so, yeah, I mean John is isn't having any challenge saying John is under the grace of God. But he never got to like he never got to experience it. It'd almost be like, and this is gonna sound kind of morbid, but like I'm okay, so I'm I'm basketball again, crap. Uh you know, I'm 40 now, and I have I've had these like I've talked to you about it a little bit. I've had a few little like midlife crises, I'm gonna die one day, the realization of that. Hey, listen, I'm working on it, okay, and I'm making progress. And I'm very at least open about what I'm walking through and processing. Um But you know, I've had these moments where I've I've thought, like, what if I die and I don't get to see like I've spent all this time with Liam working on basketball and and I've gotten to see some really cool moments. But like if I died today, I have no doubt I wouldn't get to see the best moments. The best are still yet to come. I believe fully that they're they're gonna happen. And if something happened to me, I'm still like a part of all that, right? Right. But I just personally be like, oh man, like I didn't get to see, I didn't get to see the the big game, his senior year when he won. You know what I mean? Because I'm not there. Well, it's kind of like that with the again, no analogy is perfect, but you know, Moses and Abraham, like Hebrews chapter 11 talks about how they looked forward to this, but they never got to see it like we have. And so like they are absolutely in the hall of faith, so to speak, right? They are c are included in the New Testament as pillars of our faith, but they just never got to experience what we get to see now and experience now, which is a personal relationship with Jesus, and really understanding the revelation of who God is in Jesus. Like we know that that's God, and they were they just weren't even as certain. So we actually have a you could actually make the argument that we have a clearer understanding of who God is than even the greatest prophets of the Old Testament. Like both things can be true.
SPEAKER_02Their faithfulness can be true, while also their misconception about the reality of how or just their incomplete picture.
SPEAKER_01They just were early in the story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, even with your analogy with Liam, like you can understand that the the greatest moments of his life are yet to come. But your misconception of what the future may hold for him might be. Totally true.
SPEAKER_01You know, whatever. I might even not understand what direction the level to the level of what it's a year for. That's good. So yeah, so I think that's what it's communicating. And and obviously didn't have time to go into all of that in the message, right? Because we focused on this you know major aspect of what it's like to question Jesus, so to speak, and God. But yeah, I think that's that stuff at the very least is very interesting to think about, read about. Yeah. So cool. So there it is. There it is.
SPEAKER_02Matthew 11, the parts we didn't cover on Zen. The deleted scenes. Yeah. Um, cutting down floor.
SPEAKER_01And I enjoy doing this. This is fun, because it just there's so much we could talk about. So yeah, thanks for listening. All right. Thanks for hanging out and talking about this.
SPEAKER_02Of course.
SPEAKER_01Because you kind of had to. I did. But you seem to want to also. Yeah, I did. So we're good. All right, very good. Bye, everybody. Bye.