His Hands Church
His Hands Church
Should My Middle Schooler Be Dating?
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Hey everybody and welcome back to another episode of Raising Kids Who Follow Jesus. My name is Madison. And my name is Justin. And we try to answer that question like what does it mean to raise kids who follow Jesus? Because it's really hard and there's a lot of different factors. And so on this episode, we will be discussing specifically should your middle schooler be dating?
SPEAKER_01Should your middle schooler be dating? Well, we're gonna talk about high school students in another podcast, another episode. But specifically, should your well, let's just start here. Should your third grader be dating? What do you think? Kindergartners get married all the time. That's like a thing. I have a specific, this is a real story. Um When I was in kindergarten, there was a girl in my class named Alison Walker, and I don't know why. I think this was just a thing happening at my my school where you're supposed to like like each other. Right. And so I wanted to tell her that I liked her and I wanted to whisper it in her ear. And she, and I'll never forget this. She told me, No, you're going to burp in my ear. And I wasn't going to say, Did you have a reputation for it? That's why I don't know. Like I look back and go, I must, I must have. I must have been the kind of kid who would do that, which is a little disheartening because that's probably like a pretty weird kid. Her first thought was he's gonna burp in my ear. Right. So she said no. And then um I moved to a new school in third grade, and then she moved somewhere, and weirdly enough, this was in Springfield, Missouri. I moved to Wisconsin, and then I moved to Memphis, Tennessee. She went to the same high school as me in Memphis, Tennessee. Did you date her in high school? We went on a date. Nice because it felt like we were supposed to. It was like full circle. We have to, right?
SPEAKER_02This is you know, and it just No, but answering that question, should a kindergartner date, should a third grader date? The answer's obviously no. Right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like when they're when they're kids, it's cute in the sense that all they they think a kid is is cute.
SPEAKER_02But they're like they're like playing out what it means to be grown up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, one time I picked my son Judah up from preschool. He's now seven, so he would have been five at the time. And he was like really angry. And I said, What's wrong, Judah? He goes, I don't have a girlfriend or anything. And I was like, Well, what what I was like, is that either of anywhere? Yeah. And I said, he was like angry about it, like he was missing out on some big part of life. And so I told him, Well, you you don't have to have a girlfriend. That's something you do way later in life when you're you know older, and he went, Oh, okay. And he was done. Like he he just for some reason thought I'm supposed to and I'm not. Yeah, I don't know where that came from. Right. But then he was fine.
SPEAKER_02But at that age, like you're saying, it's something for way way later, it's because it's pulling you away from being a kid, like as a third grader, if you're you're chasing girls around or doing whatever as a third grader, um, you're missing out on that, like, hey, this season of life is just meant for me to be a little kid, play on the playground. And I think that the same answer kind of goes forward even into middle school, even as late as high school for some people, is like, hey, does pursuing dating actually accomplish maybe the vision for what dating should look like in a Christian family? Or maybe um does it actually accomplish even the thing that people think about when they're dating? Like, what does a sixth grader dating actually accomplish?
SPEAKER_01And the reality is, depending on your your child and maybe what school they go to, what the culture kind of around them is, you're gonna start feeling that pressure to date in middle school in a pretty heavy way most of the time. Now, I was just sharing with you, um, our oldest who's in middle school goes to a he goes to a a private school and it's like a homeschool hybrid kind of thing. Um they have a actually, I think it's kind of a cool policy. They they're like, look, we we're not gonna try to control your children's lives. Right. You know, they're gonna have boyfriends and girlfriends at the school, like most kids will at some point. But they just can't demonstrably do that here at school. So they can't hold hands, they can't have arms around each other, they can't and what that's actually done, at least for the middle school, is they just none of him or his friends seem to be particularly interested in dating. Because I think actually at his age, the reason he would be interested in dating, truth in dating in terms of how middle schoolers describe it, is because of the fact that people are demonstrably doing it. Right. And if but because that dynamic's gone, he doesn't actually have a strong desire for that yet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But in a different social context where everyone's doing that, the peer pressure becomes the reason why you're like did you have did you have girlfriends in I had a girlfriend middle school? I had a girl I liked through elementary school, and then I had a girlfriend in middle school, and what I what that meant in sixth grade was hey, will you be my girlfriend? Yes. And then we like didn't talk to each other for we just were boyfriend and girlfriend. I think we exchanged gifts on Valentine's Day or That was it. Someone's birthday. You know, like it was it was Was this someone you went to school with? Like yeah, someone I went to school with. So did you like sit next to each other at lunch? Not really, no, no, but it was because again, I wasn't probably ready to date, and neither was she. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01We were just trying to think of like what that logistically looked like.
SPEAKER_02We it logistically looked like we were friendly to each other beforehand, and then when we put the label boyfriend and girlfriend on it, it became really, really awkward because we didn't know how to be a boyfriend or a girlfriend.
SPEAKER_01So you actually had a friend to stop being your friend. Correct, right?
SPEAKER_02And then I broke up with her after and then she broke up with me after I broke up with her, and I was just really confused. I did cry before I broke up with her with my parents. I was like, I don't want to hurt her feelings.
SPEAKER_01And they're like, it's okay. I actually so okay, here's my story with it. I I grew up were you public school? No, private school. You were private school. Were you always private school the whole? I was homeschooled and then private school. Homeschooled and private school. Okay, so I was public school all the way up until my sophomore, halfway through my sophomore year, and my parents switched me to a private school, which was a really good decision for them at the time. So I kind of got the both the whole thing. I did go to a private school really briefly for three months in eighth grade, but it was in between moves. Gotcha. And we were about to move, and I had I'd gotten in a fight at the other public school, and my parents didn't want me to stay there. So in the three months leading up to the move, they put me in this, but then I was back in public school. So whatever. So my experience was you were kind of supposed to have a girlfriend. Even in like late elementary school, it was sort of expected. And so I would just always just have a girl that I was like, I like that girl, I think she's cute. And it was very much like what you're describing, right? Awkward, but like never really even talked. It's probably the person you talk to the least. Every once in a while, a girl would call on my landline and say, Is Justin home? And my friends, yeah, I guess that was the thing too. Yeah, phone calls. Phone call. Hey, but there's just a awkward conversation. But then in the end of fifth grade, my buddy Josh, he's I'm hanging out at his house. And I'll never I mean I can remember where we were. We were in a downstairs room, and there was a Super Nintendo, and we were playing a football game on Super Nintendo, and he asked me, Have you kissed a girl? Because he had recently kissed his girlfriend. And I said no. And he responded in a way that was like, Really? Like, what's wrong with you kind of thing?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And I remember the thought went through my mind, like, is that something I should have done? You know, is that it's that normal part of like must fit in.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's like the one-upmanship too. I think with the relationship of like, oh, well, we hold hands, like, oh, well, since they hold hands, I have to hold hands. Right. And then by the time you're in eighth grade, you're you're pushing boundaries that you shouldn't push as an eighth grader.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I won't go into TMI on that, but basically, yeah, for what that was for me, is so sixth grade begins and I'm on a quest to kiss a girl. Right. And so there was a girl named Lacey, we became boyfriend and girlfriend, we went to a football game and uh went to watch the eighth grade football team. You know, it was a big deal. And parents dropped you off and stuff, and we kissed just a peck just right on the lips. And I checked that box, kissed a girl. But then that just became like that's what you do. So seventh grade, I kissed a bunch of girls. And by eighth grade, I had crossed a lot of lines because you know, there's this scripture in Song of Solomon. I was looking it up a minute ago. And Song of Solomon's obviously, you know, it's an interesting book to read in the Bible. It's a different podcast. It's a very yeah. And there's probably plenty of podcasts about it. Yeah. But it does have this line that's become kind of a classic line. And I do think that it's a good like it's scripture. Sure. And it says, do not awaken love until it's time, essentially. I don't want to butcher it, but basically, let me let me actually get the it says do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires. But there's this idea that you can jumpstart that too earlier. Yeah, you can stir it up before it. And that's definitely what happened to me. Right. Because I was not I got kind of I got into a whole world of girlfriends and what that what your what that means and physically and all kinds of stuff as an eighth grader. It was you know and then I remember when I was a youth pastor, I saw two seventh graders like just holding hands. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, what's your children? Stop. And then it hit me in that moment. That's exactly the that's who I was. But I felt so much pressure, and I felt like I wasn't normal unless I was. So all that to say it's very easy from an adult's perspective to just say of obviously middle schoolers shouldn't date. What's the upside? Sure. What's the downside? Yeah. Pretty downsides are a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, we're we're joking. You and I are both married to our high school sweethearts. Yeah. How how what were grades were you guys in when you started dating?
SPEAKER_02I think ninth grade, tenth grade. She was probably in tenth grade. I was in ninth grade, or maybe 10th and 11th, I can't remember. She's older than you? Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01I didn't know why did I not know that?
SPEAKER_02She's only older than me by a month, but she was a grade above me. So she's smarter than you. Much so she knew that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, oh yeah, totally hit that. Yeah, I don't know. Um, okay, yeah, that okay, yeah, that is right. Because she was in college. I remember that too. Yeah. But weird. Okay. So it was that early in high school? Mm-hmm. Wow. I guess my memory because I knew you when you were in the hospital.
SPEAKER_02My school closed in 10th grade, and we were dating by that point.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Yeah, I guess maybe maybe she didn't start coming around to the church until a little bit later. That's probably what it was, because I didn't meet her. I don't think I knew her all through high school. Right, correct. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So that was you. For me, Megan and I had been friends. She's also my high school sweetheart. I started dating her right at the end of my senior year with a few months left. I wanted to go to prom with someone that I really thought was awesome. And I literally, I thought Megan was very beautiful, but my filter originally was I just want to go to prom with someone who's cool and great. Yeah. Like have a really good time. Because I'd already chosen to go to college a thousand miles away.
SPEAKER_02So you're just interested in blast her off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was not interested in a relationship because I'm getting ready to move and a whole new world. But I thought Megan was amazing and I wanted to go to prom, and then the feelings just kind of developed fast to where I almost wanted to change going to college. Right. But my parents wouldn't let me, which was probably a good call. So we did a long distance. But point is I married my high school sweetheart.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So we were talking about how that's a common story. What's not a common story? I married my middle school sweetheart. I married my middle school. We locked eyes.
SPEAKER_02I was a 12-year-old. She was 13.
SPEAKER_01I was 20 years old.
SPEAKER_02Oh man.
SPEAKER_01No, and I was coming out of the boys' locker room, and I dropped my book bag. And, you know, but yeah, there's a reason for that.
SPEAKER_02For for middle schoolers, they're going through so much change that adding that kind of dynamic to that relationship while everything's changing so much is just going to be it's going to be confusing. And I think like, you know, we'll talk about high school more. Like high school, you're stepping into adulthood, and in middle school, you're stepping into high school. Like there's not that major I mean, high school is a major state.
SPEAKER_01In high school, the next stage of your life could realistically include marriage.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Yeah. Like you can realistically and wisely, even in some cases, be really young and get married.
SPEAKER_01I'm not against young people getting married. I think our culture actually has too much of a stigma on that. Right. And now you have people who but point is that's a different conversation. But you're right. In middle school, the next stage of life doesn't include it.
SPEAKER_02It's not like the normal stage where everyone gets married. So And I think as parents trying to raise kids that follow Jesus, we have on the wall in the student center on the hallway, it says don't let anyone look down on you because you're young, but set an example for all believers in faith, speech, and then purity and love. I think there's one more word there, but the purity one always jumps out because it's kind of like an awkward one. Because we're really not into like the you know, like hammering home the purity culture stuff.
SPEAKER_01Purity culture, if you're not familiar, very big when I was in like it's probably big still. Sure. But basically, when I was a kid in kind of middle school youth group church culture, it was like whatever you do. Right.
SPEAKER_02Don't don't sleep with, don't kiss, don't because you will spoil.
SPEAKER_01Sure. You know, and and look, there's there's truth to that. You want to avoid the Bible talks about fleeing sexual sin. Um Paul says, you know, avoid sexual sin at all c at all costs because no other sin so greatly affects you. Right. And that's true.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think maybe what what misses the the boat with that is like we don't make ourselves pure. Right. And I think you did a good job with those um messages recently because it is about Jesus that is creating that purification in us. Like it's it's totally a work of him. And it's not just sexual sin that makes us impure, right? But when it's saying don't let anyone look down on you because you're young, it's the assumption, I think, for most people to look down on young people and be like, they're crazy in this way, they're crazy in that way, they're crazy in this way. But if they could actually go forward and go first, and as parents, we can raise up middle schoolers especially. You set example to say, like, hey, yeah, the purity you're setting example is in your relationship with Jesus. That's what needs to be focused on. And all the other relationships can become, when they become like the primary focus, become a distraction from that relationship with Jesus.
SPEAKER_01So we're saying, and and we'll unpack this, like your your opinion would be if some if a parent came to you and said, Hey, should my seventh grader have a girlfriend, boyfriend, depending on their gender?
SPEAKER_02You would say I would say no, or I would say why. Like, okay. What's the I would I would eventually say no. I just don't think that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01What do you think the why is for most why? How many of you you've got a lot of middle school students? Yeah. Excuse me. My my oldest is one of them. What percentage, if you had to guess, of the middle schoolers that that are part of our church are actively I have a boyfriend, I have a girlfriend, and maybe not currently, but that's a thing part of their life.
SPEAKER_0215 to 20 percent would be like actively Excuse me. Yeah, you're good. That low? Yeah, I don't think that there's a ton. Not at the church.
SPEAKER_01Um It feels like when I was growing up it was more than that. Well, maybe maybe my perception And it might be outside the church.
SPEAKER_02Like that that might be it might be a skewed thing. I will say the the people who have started to entertain dating and have like perceived.
SPEAKER_01You were a middle schooler here when you were in middle school. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but that seems but the perception, I mean, maybe that's the you can cough. You're gonna be.
SPEAKER_01I don't know what to do. I'm gonna cough so bad home.
SPEAKER_02And maybe the perception, maybe the perception as a middle schooler of like who's dating and who's not dating is much more.
SPEAKER_01Maybe it was way fewer, but in my mind, it's more, and that's maybe why I felt so much of a pressure.
SPEAKER_02And that's the first season of life where you start to to like people in that way. So it's like I think what percentage of people like another boy or girl? Uh 100%. You know what I would say, like maybe five percent.
SPEAKER_01But so everyone likes each other, but as far as it takes kind of a unique like amount of confidence. Yes. Um willingness to be rejected, which I guess is confidence. Not all 12-year-olds are there yet. Correct. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go tell her that I like her and probably feel like like the worst person. Right. Basically, a middle school.
SPEAKER_02They're like, I'm gonna dance near her at the dance, like because I like her, or maybe we'll talk at the dance.
SPEAKER_01Which by the way, you say that, quick aside, middle school dance is one of the funniest things to look at. Because when you take like a 13-year-old girl and you put her in um like a dress for like a dance dress, right? And she does her hair up and puts makeup on, she looks like a person. She looks like she'd be 17, 18, because that's how girls are. But when you take a middle school 13-year-old boy and you put him like a sport coat, he instantly looks like toothpicks in a sport coat. It does. He instantly looks like they don't make sport coats for 13-year-old boys for like that's just not a thing. That's awesome. So they look and usually they're wearing like their dad's sport coat. So it's even like big and long. Yep. And I just know this because I frequent middle school dances. Um, I know this because I had to chaperone a middle school dance um years ago. Yeah. That was at a building, was actually here in our building. And we don't do that anymore. No. We realize really fast, like, this is not we have the space for it, but it is not okay. We are not called to that. But I was laughing because I'm watching these kids, and like, this looks like it looked like high school girls dancing with like their little brothers. Yes. Yeah. It was hawful. So all that aside. But point of it. So it's a point of distraction.
SPEAKER_02A distraction from the priority, and it's something that I don't think that they're probably ready for.
SPEAKER_01And it can awaken love before it's time.
SPEAKER_02Right. Especially with the peer pressure and one-upmanship, and again, it's like that purity thing, going first and saying, like, hey, what does it mean to be pure? It means it means surrendering to Jesus. And in this season, I don't think that it's going to be helpful like to even negotiate or to navigate that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of dynamics that that really affected me at that age, and I think one of them, it's so funny when you look back, like there was always a guy. I went to a lot of different schools. So middle school for me was one, two, three, four middle schools. And there was always like a guy who would talk as if he was very expensive. I knew that guy, yes. And now looking back, I was like, oh, he's probably just lying.
SPEAKER_02Right. But it's it's either they were lying or they had a really dark life. You know what I mean? Like, and they experienced some really dark, dark stuff.
SPEAKER_01But he would brag about, you know, I mean, just being really direct and honest, he would brag about things physical acts that a middle schooler should have no business even knowing what they are. Right. But that was the word that's how I found out what those things were. I did at school, like, and then it and then it was like, if you haven't done that, you're pathetic. Was sort of the vibe. Yeah. And so what I what a lot of guys would do, because I think I did this too, is just lie about it. Lie about it, right? And then after you lie about it, you feel like almost a compulsion to accomplish it. To accomplish it. Right. And that's just a and and that's what we're talking about, the potential downsides of middle school dating is. And it's it is adult. It's just the truth. It's very adult things being put upon very young children. Right. And we've got to be able to do that. High schoolers, some of them are children, some of them are not, in terms of like all middle schoolers are children. Right. Like they're children.
SPEAKER_02And we talked about this in the device episode, but it's like the things that you're exposed to on a device, whether it's pornography or what have you, like they give an unrealistic expectation of what a relationship or a dating relationship might look like, right? Or a sexual relationship might look like. And so when you have the maturity of a seventh grader with the exposure of a device, it's not going to lead to a healthy expectation of what is going to happen in your dating relationship.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's a that's a really good point because when I'm looking back to my year, so into to date myself, um, middle school for me would have been like 1996 to 98, somewhere in that range. So when I was one or two. Awesome. And so I I actually bet you that a higher percentage of my generation, quote unquote, dated in middle school because we didn't have social media and other things to sort of like facilitate an almost dating relationship. Yeah. You couldn't, it was like, I like more of that official boyfriend-girlfriend stuff. But I bet we were far less on average exposed to I mean, there was pornography, sure. Sure. But it's like you had to have a computer in your house. Right. Not everybody did. You had to have the internet if you had a computer, definitely not everybody did. And I didn't think about the fact that in today's culture, you probably have an extremely high percentage of children who have been exposed to very explicit sexual material. Right. Whether they wanted to or not, depending on, you know, the friend groups and whatever.
SPEAKER_02No, those guys you're talking about are the same guys that like showed me porn. Right.
SPEAKER_01So now that guy's not they're like, hey, yeah, right. And that wasn't even an option. No one had a yeah. So now you combine that, as you were talking about, I was thinking, oh yeah, now you combine the exposure of that and the pressure becomes to imitate what you've seen. And that's terrifying.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Like well, and too, like, I think as a parent, to not just come down and be like, no, this is this is off off limits. This is not something that can happen, but to to actually be really excited about the the fun that dating can be, and like, you know, your kid is going to discover like their values and who they are, and a lot of that happens through like good relationships and bad relationships. Yeah, you should a lot of shaping. To to share with your kid how excited you are for that. If they're really pushing, I'm trying to think of like the eighth graders that are really pushing like when can I date? When I can like, I'm gonna do it in secret if you don't, you know, like all of that. I think if they see that. You're excited about it, and that you're saying, like, hey, in this next season, like I'm excited for you to do that. I think it's going to be really fun and like helpful. Um, but for right now, I think it'll be a distraction. And so, not to even give like a hard deadline to say, like, so that way when you turn 14, have a girlfriend, right? But just to say, like, hey, like, let's keep talking about it as you get older and like know that you're allowed to talk about any aspect of it with me. And I'm excited for it because what it'll mean is you'll be able to um, I think that's where you're in relationships is where you kind of find out what it means to serve other people you know in a really unique way. Um, even in a high school level relationship. Um, but to just kind of guard it and say, like, but for middle school, I think we can we can hold off. And you got and I think most kids can can respect that.
SPEAKER_01Now, obviously, this podcast is all under the umbrella of raising kids who follow Jesus. And so there is sort of this version of Christianity that is it's like the Puritan kind of approach, right? Where it's so you're never dating because Jesus. You know what I mean? Where like that's obviously not the approach you're saying. Well, no, okay. So one would just be shut it down, right? Never speak of this again. Not in this house. Not in this house, because we're Christians. What does that even mean? Right. The other version is okay, what you're kind of talking about too, is there's been this other side, um, and I don't know if this still has the same momentum that it had about twenty years ago. I don't think it does. But there was this big movement of of like no, no, no, we're gonna take this so seriously that if you decide, even in middle school, that you like a girl, no, we it's courtship. And so we're gonna meet with parents, families get involved, intertwine. And it actually a lot of people who have been through that come out the other side of it. You know, there's people I know who are married that did that, and great. And then there's other people who like almost like they felt a pressure that I've gotta marry this person because that's sort of the st the setup for it. And that's not what you're advocating for. Right, right. What you're saying essentially is hey, I because we follow Jesus, uh I'm thinking about the conversation with Ken. Like, because we follow Jesus, we believe that like every single person is incredibly valuable and important. And we also believe that marriage is something relationships like that, romantic relationships, are a big part of the world that God's designed. And one day you're gonna be ready for that and it's gonna be awesome. But right now, for these reasons, I don't think that'd be a good idea. Right. And let's have an engage in that and have a conversation. So what do you do if the kid, okay, let's just run through a few scenarios. Some middle school kids don't have options to date, even if they wanted to. You know, it's like the typical movie where there's the kid that's right in love with the popular girl, but he gets shoved in his locker by the big boys all day. Like he's she he's invisible. Like, remember the movie Transformers? Oh, okay. Where like, you remember the movie Transformers? Like like uh Shia LaBeouf. Shia LaBeouf plays in his character, he falls in love with the girl and he's had a crush on her for a long time, and apparently he's gone to school with her forever, but she doesn't even know his name exists. You know what I mean? There's that, okay. But then there are kids, and let's let's talk about this. There's kids who are gonna push their parents in that way because they do develop a little bit faster in middle school than others, and they do look like my son is in the eighth grade, and all not all eighth graders are created equal, okay, in terms of when puberty starts. So there's some of his friends that have like beards not quite, but like they they are they are developing faster, and there's others of his friends that look like they are fifth graders, right? It's like so the kids who tend to develop a little faster, there's A, there's more hormones, but B, they tend to be the kind of kids that are viewed as more desirable in those ways, and there's maybe more pressure on them to date at that age because that's what like people are talking about it. There's just a social pressure there. So what do you do in that situation where you have a kid who wants to date because people want to date them? Right. Let's say that. And whatever date means in middle school, like we're boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever. We we're officially interrupted.
SPEAKER_02I think that would be the the majority. It's just articulating why why do you want to date? And it is, it's like, is it to just have fun? Like, are you talking about what are you talking about? Like when a middle school is really pushing for it, like what are you talking about when you mean do you mean go to the movies with each with each other? Do you mean uh talk on the phone together? Do you mean hang out at their house? Do you mean hang out at our house? Do you mean like what does it mean to date at that age?
SPEAKER_01Well, what do you think it often looks like for the kids who do?
SPEAKER_02I think for a lot of kids do it. The kids who do, it's I think um essentially it's like a sexual exploration sort of thing. Because a lot of it's physical? Yeah, a lot of it's physical. It's like, okay, I've hand held hands with the last girl. Now if I can hand hold hands with this next girl, do you think that's more the boys or both? I think it's both.
SPEAKER_01Because of the pressures of culture and just how how non-sacred that stuff has been culturally. Yeah, how not how it's just not as big of a deal?
SPEAKER_02It's not as big of Yeah, I think And it's just the desire that's in there. Like I you just got pumped full of hormones for the first time ever. Like you're talking about developing and all of that. It's like with that comes the the physical desire. So I think that that's gonna be like a huge element of it. It's like I want to make out with a girl or I want to make out with a guy. Yep. Either as a trophy to say, like, I made out with that person or just because you want to.
SPEAKER_01And obviously, obviously, no parent wants to imagine that with their middle school kid. Um, hopefully.
SPEAKER_02I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to imagine everyone. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_01So, but but I'm saying it's like it's it's that's a hard pill to swallow for parents who are like, I might someone might be listening to this and their their eighth grader has a boyfriend, has a girlfriend, and they're like, but I know that not them, they're not doing that. And that's that's like let's live in that world. Sure. Sure. However, I will say what I saw and experienced, and I definitely saw as a youth pastor, was obsession. Because we are also wired, especially as a man, you're in middle school. Middle schoolers aren't self-reflective yet, typically. They don't tend to ask themselves, man, why do I need a boyfriend? Why do I need to grow up? What is it, what value is this adding to my they don't ask those questions, but they feel the need for approval, the need to be like it feels good to be liked.
SPEAKER_02If someone says, I like you by the individual, and then to I again I've used the word trophy, it's probably a harsh word, but to also kind of lord it over your friends of like, I can date this person, look who I can date. Sure.
SPEAKER_01It gives you status, it gives you all kinds of value. And so I think for a lot of kids, what ends up happening, like this is this is just the reality of what dating means in middle school, is you have to become obsessed with this other person. And often they go from someone that isn't even on your radar as a human, you don't think about them at all, to now you like each other, right? And within a week, they are the most important thing in the world. And what that translates to in our culture is constantly texting. Most kids have devices. If you haven't, we we talked about that in our thoughts there, but if they have devices, they're constantly texting, they're constantly in communication, there's all kinds of and I will say and it just becomes an obsession that is likely to end really poorly, and then they have a shattered you know, and that's where it's like the kids that are that are dating in the youth group that I can picture.
SPEAKER_02It's like the amount of drama that comes with the dating relationship, or even like the possibility of dating relationships, it's like it just increases exponentially. It's like adding another um responsibility onto your workload of like, okay, and now I have sports, school, home life, and dating.
SPEAKER_01No, that's a great point. The drama alone, I think you could even talk to your kids about that. Like there is one girl at Liam's school, my oldest son's school, and I won't say her name. And it's it's actually not someone who even goes to church here. So there you go. Um I'm just her name's Anna. I'm just saying that's a good thing. Well, because some people who go to church here listen to the podcast, um, and I won't get to the channel. And it's none of you talking to none of your daughters. None of your daughters. I'm being honest. But it's this one girl. She just has this, she's has a reputation for being boy crazy, and she's she's whatever that means, dated, several of, or at least a couple of of Liam's friends. And he's even said, Oh my gosh, she just like the amount of drama surrounding her. He actually sent one of his friends, he's like, I feel really bad for him. Because he associated being in a relationship because of that's that's the goal that's with just all the drama. And he's right. It's drama, and this kid gets sucked into like rivalries.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like you can't hang out with that person because they did this, and that's my ex-boyfriend and I hate him, and now you have to hate him. Right. Because it's it's it's immature. It's immature. And that's where it is. It's like a seventh grader, an eighth grader, definitely a sixth grader. They're just not ready for the burden of negotiating an intimate relationship. Yeah. Or developing an intimate relationship.
SPEAKER_01The conversation about like So are you saying you can have a prohibitive stance on dating as a middle school parent?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say that. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So you're telling yourself.
SPEAKER_02And are but articulated with the heavily articulated. Like why? And like some of the things we've talked about, the drama, the um, the workload that comes with the dating, the point of dating. Like why what is this accomplishing?
SPEAKER_01Well, I and I think even as a Jesus follower, because again, that's everything, is understanding you know, scripture says there's a season for everything, right? Um there is a lot of that in scripture, actually, a lot of nothing is good out of season. Right. Like fruit is bad out of season. Right. You know, it's like uh I had to go get a watermelon the other day, and I realized I've never picked out a watermelon. Megan's always done that. And I was like, how do you know if it's a good watermelon? Well, half of it is that it's the right season. Well, no, you just try it like a grape. You just bite it, you just take a big bite in and you're like, uh, I rolled it down the aisle, and if it veers left, it's not ready. That's what I learned. Um, but but like a big part of it's like, well, this is the season.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this is just you're just the not that you're not ready or that you you don't want to, or you don't that that girl is the wrong girl, or that guy is the wrong guy. Like anything like that. Like, no, that very well may be the person you date next year. But for right now.
SPEAKER_01For for for right now. This is not the the thing. We've just decided that this is not the right season for that. There's other relationships that are more important right now. And I'll say this I would even say, I'm gonna cough one more time, so you know, here we go. Hold on. I'm gonna turn from the mic. You've got this. What I was about to say was gonna be good, so just I don't know if it's gonna be good or not. Ah Yeah, I have this like allergy thing going on right now. That's what everyone says. No, it is. What do you what uh what do you think it is? Just go ahead. You think it's real serious? I just go that article. I'll be sick in three days.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you think I'm like no, I'm super contagious. No, I'm kidding, I'm missing. Other relationships are more important at this season. And I would say obviously your relationship with the Lord, right? Like we want to develop that. But your relationship with your friends. Yeah. Because what happens with most middle school kids who date is they actually diminish their relationship with their friends, go all in and get super obsessed with a girl or a boy, and that almost always ends and usually ends pretty hurtfully. And then they've sort of distanced themselves from those those other people, and now they have a harder time jumping back in. Right.
SPEAKER_02And so actually, or or have been pulled into the drama that's estranged them from their friends. Like, it has actually created I've been actually mean to you because of this.
SPEAKER_01And so those and friendship relationships are far more important in a middle school student's life.
SPEAKER_02And that's why when you asked that, I felt like it was a funny question like should a third grader date? It was like, obviously, no. It's like because they're supposed to be a kid. And I think that's the middle school play.
SPEAKER_01They're supposed to play hide and go seek in their backyard with their buddies in the neighborhood.
SPEAKER_02Right. And so I think the same thing is true for middle school. It's like that's just a season where it's like the last um the last like remnant of childhood is still there. Like you can still have goofy fun.
SPEAKER_01Don't rip that away from them or or allow or allow that to be ripped away. You're not the one ripping away from it, but allow that to be ripped away from them by the the absolute drama pressure and adult. Maturity. It's maturity. It requires maturity that isn't there. Do you know a 13-year-old who you're like, they're ready to date? No. Okay. And you actually know a lot of 13-year-olds. Yeah. You probably uh I think spend more time rubbing rubbing elbows with 13-year-olds than the average person.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I just don't think I don't think that they would be it just wouldn't be worth it. Yeah. It's just not something that's worth it. It's like, should a 13-year-old get a job? It's like, well, kind of. Maybe she should maybe do chores. Right. But or like the job that they have is like in the summer for their grandpa, but it's like based in that relationship, not like, no, no, no, they really should go work at McDonald's. Like, no, I don't think they should.
SPEAKER_01And I can even say as a parent, I know for if like I know, you know, you'll hear like, oh, I heard your son thinks this person, right. And there's part of you as a parent that's like, oh, that's awesome. Like they're becoming a a little human. And and it can be tempting to want to like usher that along, right, at this stage of life, but just to recognize that nah, it's innocence is really special. And the longer innocence can be held on to, the better. There's a time when it does go away because of the world we live in. There's no, I mean, it just I'm just I'm trying to try to be pessimistic, but it it can be preserved in middle school more so than a lot of people might realize. Yeah. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02And to again, it's that purity thing of like having them set the example of like going forward with Jesus first, um, and then the all all the other stuff kind of follows.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So um if you have a middle school student and they're already in the dating scene. Just ground them. Ground them. Take their phone away, make their life, it's summertime as we're recording this.
SPEAKER_02Have I think have have the conversation and start to, I think, again, if it's reached a, you know, lines are crossed and things like there might need to be consequences, but just I think really thoughtful questions kind of pick at that stuff more than you would realize.
SPEAKER_01I think you're right. And even just the ability to change course. A lot of parents feel like, well, it's too late. No, you can say, hey, can we talk? Yeah. I've noticed that since this has become part of your life, it it's it's changing things in a way that I don't think is healthy. And because of that, I love you so much. I think we need to make some changes. And they'll probably get mad at you if you make certain changes, but then they can just blame you to their friends for the reason why. And every middle schooler hates their parents. And that's a that's they're supposed to, I think, right? But they negotiate you later in life, maybe.
SPEAKER_02But just know that I guess that's the thing is like keep in mind your goals in what you're trying to help them do. And it's like if you're helping them fix their eyes on Jesus and get their priorities straight when it you know follows with that, but that will be more helpful for you to like navigate the fight rather than just having a fight for no reason.
SPEAKER_01Spend time in prayer about it. It'll be good. So to wrap it up, we're saying dating in middle school, not much of a reason. Nah, no, not really any upside. Massively potential downside. Yes. Right? High school, it's like there's some upside, there's there's different dynamics there, but the upside level, solo, just it's the downside.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think uh it doesn't really work when you talk with kids about it, but I've always asked, like, how old should someone be when they start dating? Right. And they're like, well, they usually say whatever age they are. And so you ask like the year before, like, so if you're a seventh grader, like should a sixth grader date? And they're like, no, definitely not. Right. And you're like, well, maybe you might see yourself a little bit differently in a year.
SPEAKER_01That's a good way, that's a good approach. That's a really interesting way to go about it.
SPEAKER_02And so, yeah, just not really a great reason. Um, it's a distraction and a temptation and um potentially filled with lots of drama. So for this, for the season, um, be excited about them one day dating and really do be excited about that, but uh you know, delay it if you can through middle school.
SPEAKER_01And the and the Jesus filter there, the scriptural sort of backing is there's seasons for things. And it actually because we follow Jesus, we want to try to live life in the right season. Right. And life, God's kind of designed the world that way, and He's actually designed us that way. Right. And we don't want to awaken love before it's time. All right. Well, that that'll do it for this, I would just say, more fascinating dive. We'll talk high school world into the middle school love life.
SPEAKER_02The middle school love lives. Yeah, yeah, and we'll talk high school soon. Deal. Thanks for listening.