Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Raising Kids Who Follow Jesus. I'm Justin. And I'm Madison. And we're talking today about phones. Um and should you get your kid a phone? Yeah, should because they're gonna want one. Right. I mean, I want I want a new phone. Every time I get like every time I learn that there's a new version of the phone I have, I don't even know what's different about it. I'm like, well, I want that. You know? And so me tell my kid, no, you can't have that. You can't have a phone, because I have to have the latest and greatest of phones. I'm just teasing. But it's a huge question. It's a huge question. I think the very fact that people ask that question shows that we recognize that maybe there's something up. Something, yeah, it's not as simple as should I, you know, should I should I I bet we wrestle more as parents with should I get my kid a phone? Or like, should I get my kid a dog? You know, like a dog is a living, breathing like creature that's going to live in my home. And there's there's like less internal wrestling there for most people than should I get them this device? Yeah. That comes along with all kinds of other stuff. When was the first time Liam, who is 13? 13. I turned 13 like a week ago, as of this recording. How old was he when he first asked for a device? Third, probably third grade. Nice. So this would have been third graders are nine, eight, eight years old. And he had a lot of friends that were getting them. And it was it was like Apple, it was like phones. A smartphone. Yeah. Yeah. And so um if as young as eight is like a normal, you know, cultural thing, like there's a there's a uh a thing in your house that's not you that has influence over your kids. More so than you realize, right, or want to. I'll tell you a way I saw that, and this is by the way, I'll say this before all this stuff. I recognize that most people listening to this have who have kids, um, huge percentage, maybe even the biggest percentage, have already given their kids devices. Um whether it's a phone, iPad that they have frequently, sometimes locked up, sometimes free, whatever. Listen, if if you've already done this, don't be like, oh, I don't want to l. No, even at the end of this, whether you haven't made that decision or not, um, we might have some advice as we go through this that it contradicts what you've already done.

Sure.

But we're gonna get to a point where I think all of us can understand some basic things. But I just wanted to say that. Um, so you know, to the whole idea of it has influence more so than you realize. I'm gonna like share this like I've shared this with you before, but I have this like really amazing window into that recently. So I was watching some YouTube thing that got recommended to me and you know how the algorithms work. I have to reset YouTube every once in a while. Uh because it was like it's only feeding me stuff that I don't making me more mad or upset. Right, right. Um anyway, so I mean I maybe have a problem with devices, right? And we'll get to that. But um it was it was like focusing on this this music video that won like the music video of the year, some music video awards, right? And and it was like kind of examining it. And it was the like most I like I if I if I use the word demonic, uh people who aren't Jesus followers, even a lot of people who are, would be like, oh my gosh, it's so cliched, like this is so there's demons in those videos. No, but I mean it was like it was really dark, super dark, super just like it was trying. If it wasn't, it's like, let's try to be, and not in this kind of kitschy, funny, like satirical way. Like, no, no, no. Like, if the classic understanding of the devil directed a music video, what would it look like? Okay. And what I thought back was, okay, I'm I'm still young enough that like MTV was a big thing when I was a kid, and it was always pushing the envelope. But it hit me like how was my first thought was how in the world could parents like ever let their kids watch? And I was like, Oh, parents don't know.

Right.

Because when I was a kid, music videos were always kind of edgy. They pushed the envelope, but they also knew that you're probably watching this on the TV, that your parents can walk into the room, maybe the living room, or even in your room, like mom's gonna walk in and see it, go, what are you watching, right? So push the envelope, but always in a way that was a little bit like culturally appropriate, you know, defensible. Yeah. It's defensible. You could be like, mom, it's not that bad, blah, blah, blah. I don't want to Okay. This is something that I think the average parent, if they saw it, would freak out. And I realized, oh, it's because they know that kids aren't watching this on a TV. Right. They're watching this on a device. And it gave me this mental picture of a kid in a room with their parents, like a single living room, and they're watching this, and the parent is looking and seeing just a kid in the back of a phone, and probably assuming that they're doing something playing, clash clans, something like that, and has no idea that six inches away from them, a foot away from them, is is this exposure kind of thing. Right. And so when I say like the influence these things have, it's like this in vi you don't know what what's coming through at the time. And it's a lot. And if you don't know, I think most parents have it in at least an inclination. Like they're like, this is bad. I know it's bad, but they might not have thought through the right questions or the right filters when it comes to like, I'm supposed to be, you know, raising this kid up to follow Jesus. How does how does having this phone help or hinder that? They haven't even asked that question. It's kind of you know it's you know people know it's bad, because what you never hear someone do is like like you never hear a parent say to another parent, like, Oh, hey, I got them an iPhone yesterday. Isn't that awesome? Oh, dude, that's so cool. That's so great. Like, it's not like when they get a car, like, we bought them a car. You don't see people post on on social media like, got our kid there first iPhone. At the Apple store. Right. Here's first iPad. What you do here is parents always, it's always like given like with a butt, like, we got them a phone, but right. We're not gonna let them this, we're not gonna let them that. And then, you know, some people stick to their guns. It's hard to stick to your guns, so a lot of times it becomes this like, we're gonna do this, but with these, and then eventually it's just like it's just right they have access to the word which is a uh um which is normal. Yeah, it's it's super normal, and it's really easy for you know to get for the I'm trying to find the words, purpose of what you're trying to do in your home. Like if we're saying if if as for me in my house, I'll serve the Lord, like for that to get lost in the fighting over the device, yeah, or like the constant pestering to get me the device, or the you know, the despair at the FOMO of what other all the other kids are experiencing, it can be hard to remember. Like, my job is not just to raise a kid who can talk to their friends all the time. My job is to raise a kid that hopefully loves Jesus one day. And so if you're caught up in all of that fighting, you let that be the determining factor, you might actually miss out on what that phone can accomplish or what it will accomplish without you realizing it. Yeah, so let's let's look at this in in a couple parts. Um and I'll say this we're gonna have another episode that talks about ways to maybe if you if the device is already a thing, right. Now what? What do you do? To restrict deals or yeah, whatever, however you want to go. Are there healthy ways to do that? But let's for this sake say if I'm a parent who hasn't crossed that line yet, maybe my kid's not old enough, or I'm thinking it to should I get them the device or should I not? And I think we say device, what we're typically talking about here is a phone. A phone. I think an iPad would probably fall in the same category. Like, yeah. Um there are some instances where like the uh Nintendo Switch or the Xbox or whatever essentially is a glorified computer. It's not really just like what we had with Game Boys. It's funny, you even said yesterday, like we call them phones, but they're supercomputers. Yeah, they're they're super not phones. They're they're the we we call it that's my phone, but it's actually my the phone that my kid will never call anybody on, right? But um but if you're someone who already has done the phone, A, you can skip to the next episode if you want, but I will say I think that this conversation we're about to have is so vital because you do have the ability as a parent to change your mind. You do have the ability as a parent to go, hey, you know what? Um I've got some different filters than I had. Right. It's it's repentance. It's rethinking it. Honestly, like going the wrong way and being, you know, uh reminded of that, and that's usually by the spirit, and like a conviction comes and you're like, whoa, like I have been going the wrong way, and all you do is turn. And I love that you said that because most people don't know that the word repent means rethink. Like that that is the actual literal definition of the root word of repent. And we all have that opportunity at any time. So just if if you're listening and you're like, I already we did the phone three years ago, moving on. Yeah, you can move on to the next episode, fine. But you know, uh you might be surprised at some of these, at the very least, I think you owe it to yourself to be able to answer some of the questions that we're going to work through. And so you talk a lot about phones. Do you have something else you look like you're no, go ahead. No, you look like you had I mean Madison. There's a microphone in front of me, so I feel like I have to talk. So you go ahead. But it wasn't anything like that. No, nothing invaluable or it was like a gem of okay so you you talk a lot about the idea of knowing why you're getting the phone. Oh yeah, I think that's the biggest, that's the biggest like filter for pretty much anything, um, especially when you're trying to like follow Jesus. It's like know why you're doing something. Um and you if you ask yourself that question, you'll be able to gauge like, is this a a healthy thing? But why are you getting the phone? And for me and the experience I've had with parents and families, it's kind of fallen into a couple different buckets of like why we got them a phone. The major one is they pestered me and wore me down until I finally so many times and they they I they they hate me. Yeah, they hated me, they did the creative option and proved to me that they could earn it, or maybe they bought it with their own money. And it's like, I don't, you know, a 15-year-old buying it with their own money, that might be the appropriate way to do it. Um everyone has all these different ways, but it essentially went, I said no so often, and then I eventually said yes, and the dam kind of broke, and now we have the phone. Right. So that that's one bucket is the I just wore they wore me down. Yep. And another bucket is Or they they proved they did something that made me go, okay, I think that maybe they're they worked hard, they saved their money, warming down. They want a phone and they're gonna buy it themselves. But they wore me down or they made a good point, right kind of thing. Okay. Um the other bucket I I see a lot is like, especially with this generation, like you're a child of the eighties, and so there was like the stranger danger 80s and nineties. So I'm saying like I was born in eighty three. You're a millennial. I remember in the room, nine times out of ten. Millennials not an insult anymore. No, no, but I am the oldest millennial in the room. All right. So I'd rather be a millennial than Genette. Stranger Danger was a thing. Like a culture of milk carton kids, kidnappings, like being afraid of the white van that drives by, that sort of thing. By the time I was a kid, it was like there were still like infomercials. Or I don't even know if they're infomercials, they were like little skits. Yeah, it's like, hey kid, I my I I lost my dog. Would you mind jumping in the car and helping me find it? If you're at the skate park, run away from strangers. Right. Mine was just a normal park if you're at the the park. Right. And so um those those parents feel that impulse to go, I need to protect my kid. And this is actually a tool that I use to respond to that um impulse to protect. You can keep tabs on them, right? Like a lot of people. Oh yeah. You can you you have a GPS tracker on your on your kid. Now you could just tie an air air tag to their backpack and be able to track it this way. That wouldn't be hard, yeah. But it is like, okay, if they're out at a friend's house or if they get a car and they're driving around, um, I'm able to log into the app, see where they are, see that they are where they said they're gonna be, um, and basically have that fear. And I and it's funny, just like earlier with the other bucket, it's like they either warm me down, or there could be a healthy version of that to some degree where they actually showed me like whatever. Okay, I might challenge that anyway. But then it's like on this one, the keeping tabs on your kids, it's like, well, there's one aspect of that, like, absolutely makes all the sense to the world. It's a dangerous world, blah, blah, blah. Right. You know, but then there's the other side where I a lot of parents deal with anxiety. And how often is just the ability to constantly every five seconds look where my kid is, does that just feed the anxiety? Right. It doesn't actually help it, it feeds it in a way where you're just like, Where's my where are they now? Where are they now? Right. I don't have that with with I haven't really needed that, number one, with my kids, but um I don't like the idea of that personally. That seems like I would just I know I mean it's a normal thing now. I'm sure it is. It's a it's a normal thing for parents, and it's a normal thing for even just like college kids. I've got a couple friends that are in college-aged and they eat their parents still their parents, yep. Their parents have their location and they have their parents' location, and then they're friends as well. So like if you're hanging out or if you're coming on the like coming home or whatever, you can you're supposed to go do bad stuff. There are people on staff here that have that with their spouse. And again, yes. And again, it's uh why? The impulse is like instead of texting back and forth while you're driving, hey, are you on your way home? Still old. You can just I don't do it, but I'm saying like you could just say, like, oh, let me check t check life 360 or finding. I can see where they are. Right. I was joking like as a teenager, how do you go do bad stuff now? I mean, you Yeah, I have lots of thoughts on it. But that's that's right. That's uh uh not that you should do bad stuff, but like I think we all remember the times that we did bad stuff and our parents didn't know. And and like I don't, you know, that can be really bad. I had my experiences, but there were times that I came home and it was like that could have been so bad. I'm never doing that again. Yeah. And my parents were like, Do you have fun? I was like, uh-huh. But I go to bed and I'm just like dealing with stuff, but like I'm so glad they didn't know and so I think for the buckets on why people buy it, okay. Um that those are the main ones that I see. Um and I think I guess the question is Well, can we add a I'll add a third bucket. It's maybe a smaller bucket, and maybe it is a rationalization uh confirmation bias bucket. Oh, I think that's a good idea. Or maybe it's legit. I'm just that's what I'm saying. Is that hey, you know, these devices are gonna be they they need to have these skills, they they need to have the ability to like this is a huge part of life. And so some at some point they're going to get a phone and and all that comes with it. So shouldn't they shouldn't they do it while they're in the house so that you can equip them or they're they're safer and yeah, I totally understand that. So I think that's one. And another bucket I I forgot to mention is the social dynamic. Like kids do communicate via Snap and via you know, messages and TikTok, all the different social media platforms, constant FaceTiming, whatever it is. I've I've even known my brother did this when there weren't phones, he did it with our home phone, but like would play video games before voice chat was a thing with his cousin on the line, just like talking on him. Well, no, and I've seen that so as a someone who has I have four kids and most of their friends are on devices. It's funny, and not all, this is not a catch-all, but there are times where like I'm a talkative person, and so like if I'm chauffeuring one of my kids and their friends somewhere, I'll just talk. And it's amazing how often I'll talk to the kid and they'll just look at me like a deer in headlights, almost like, what are we doing? Right. I'm like, I'm talking to you, I'm asking you questions, and then whatever. But then they'll sit there the whole time. So my my daughter has a friend that they do dance together, and they're both really sweet kids. My daughter, her friend, Allie, she's awesome. And uh they will uh Lily's my daughter, Allie is her friend. No one knows their last name, so I think privacy's secure. But we'll give them a ride. And my my daughter has a a watch that is not it is a uh kids it's a kid watch thing that came with one of our plans, and so she can text um or call like seven total numbers or something like that, but they we have to so it's like me and Megan and and then but this friend of hers is is one of those um and and we can see all of that like that's it's it's like a pa it's designed for kids, right? That kind of thing. But they'll just sit in the back seat and text each other back and forth. They're sitting right next to each other. Right. They don't talk, right? There's not a word spoken. And it's just it's just such a different world. Yeah, and uh I I think for answering that question, those are the reasons that I see. So when you were saying the social pressure, it's like yeah, like this is how this is what kids do. I'm not gonna be friends with anybody if I can't text them. Right. And even if you say, well, just have we'll invite them over, it's like they'll bring their phone and they'll be on it the whole time they're at my house. So and so I guess that's the the the question. It's like you're raising kids, you're trying to create a culture in your home that is Christ-like, Jesus-like, and you're trying to raise them to love Jesus and follow Jesus. My question is as you ask that that question, like why are we buying this? Is the device solving the problem that you're addressing? And what new problems is it creating? Definitely. So like you might solve the okay, now they're not bugging me anymore. I had a dad, I'll just say this. And by the way, it's if it's not obvious, like our take is probably like, hey, if your kid doesn't have a device, right, like don't, or at the very least, don't be feel like you're under any pressure to at all. Full disclosure, my 13-year-old, we did just get him his first device. So I sound like probably a big hypocrite. Um Do you think I'm a hypocrite? I think Christianity is the religion of hypocrites. That's like the whole thing. Oh, yeah, there you go. So that's a good point. I think if we're hypocrites, if we embrace it, and Jesus is the perfect one. So yes, I do think you're a hypocrite, but go ahead. It's okay. Um I can live with that. The the We've dealt with all that for years. And and my son is like the he's the last holdout of his class. Dude, he would say things to me like so he if anyone wanted to message him, we would have messenger kids, which is a thing that I guess it's like a Facebook messenger for children. And so he would tell people like they'd be like, Hey, you know, how can we how can we like how can we tell you we want to play a an online game together or something, which is a normal thing that boys do. And he's like, Messenger kids, and they're like, like a kid, like they like okay. Like a baby. So he would just be like, Dad, please, please, please, please, please. And I'd say no. He's like, I'm the only one. I was like, I'm fine with that. I hope you're the only one to do lots of things. I hope you're the only one that ever achieves blah blah blah, whatever. Right. I would kind of be playful. He's like, Well, when I'm 16 and driving, I'm like, oh no. Yeah. And he's like, seriously? I was like, no, I don't think I didn't have a phone when I started driving, and I'm probably a better driver because of it. He's like, Well, how will I know where things are? I'm like, You'll have to think. Yep. What if I get lost? You'll be in trouble. You know, but I was teasing it, but I actually started thinking about it. Actually, if you would have given me a phone, yeah, it had GPS on it, but I I learned where things were. I'm not gonna send my kid to downtown Atlanta to pick up a package for me, whatever. Like he's gonna drive. Where do you think you're going? But I was like, he'll be a worse driver. Yeah. I'm a worse driver because of phones. Yeah. So anyway, um, but unintended consequences. So he, you know, he was asking, asking, asking. We didn't feel worn down. We did, maybe it's a compromise or a cop out or whatever. Um, so far we feel good about it, but that could change. And then we might need to make a different decision. Right. Um, we we got a smartwatch for him, and uh like an Apple Watch can be a standalone device that has its own number. Sure. And so he can text and call his friends, yeah, and they can call him, but he it's it's all it doesn't have social media, it doesn't have internet, doesn't have those other things. And we felt like, and this was actually my take. I don't know if it's right, and I'm willing to change my mind. Like I had a we had landlines growing up, so people called my house to talk to me. Kids, when I was his age, you know, my mom would be like, Oh, so-and-so's on the phone, and we would talk, and that was a thing. And um there wasn't, I think probably it was the social bucket, I guess, is probably the main one. There was enough of a social thing where like it it's getting to be really, really tough in some areas for him not to have that at all. So that was what we went with. We thought that was the safest option we could think of. Yeah, and you said like our position is like don't get devices if your kids don't have devices. That's not that's not really my decision. My my my position is if your answer to the why is is valid and you can hold to that conviction, like you're saying, like this is a solution to a problem that's that's experiencing that my kid is experiencing, that's a totally reasonable No, but no why, right, and knowing why gives you the room to course correct when it's not fulfilling that purpose anymore, or it's coming with unin unintended consequences that um that aren't you know beneath that solution, if that makes sense. Like the problems are worse than the solution. Agreed. So let's just do this. We had how many buckets did we create? Four. Four buckets. Let's go through each bucket. Bucket one was I get them the phone. The why is so they stop pestering me and I don't feel like they hate me. Yeah. What is your what would you say? As for me in my house. That's the the let them hate you. No, but that's what I'm saying. Yeah, that's the authority thing. It's like the it is your decision. They are not the person that's in charge. And it's okay to say to even a 17-year-old, obviously a 17-year-old handles it differently, but it's okay to say to 17-year-old, this is how we live when we're here. And this is I've I'm trying to set the culture of my house. Yeah. Um what's what's the word in Proverbs where it says do not ex is not is it exacerbate? Exasperate. Exasperate. Yeah, there you go. Thank you. Don't exasperate your kids. So like if you choose not to get your kids a phone, don't what problems we have? Don't like don't like rub it in. Don't be like, hey. Like we're a phoneless household, like talking about that all the time. But it is to explain to them that you think, hey, socially you seem fine. Um, academically, you seem fine. Uh, you're gonna I don't care. I know I trust you. Like I trust you when you go out in your car. You seem fine. It's not gonna solve any problems for our house, so why would I get you a phone when it could come with a lot more a lot more problems? Right. And so it's okay to say no if you understand why you're saying no. Correct. Not just it the impulse like I think at church they told me to say no to this. And I you're not gonna be able to hold on to that because it's not a conviction. No, it's gotta be a conviction. But I will say that the to the first bucket, if the why is I'm just tired of the conflict, I try I mean I know from experience how hard that conflict can be. You y that authority word you just used, we're supposed to raise our children. We're supposed to teach our children, guide our children, lead our children. Lead our children. Discipline our children. I mean scripture says over and over again that like you know parents should discipline their children. That doesn't mean just that does discipline doesn't just mean like punish. It's not just spanking. No, no, no, no. Um it's right, or taking things away or grounding, whatever. Discipline, like instilling discipline within them, which is a lot of times like a mental thing, like teaching them to think, teaching them to think through. But my point is um it stinks when your kids don't like you. When I was a youth pastor, the number one thing that I would see, and usually it was about the middle school years, early high school years, and the kids that had the most difficult life situations or in the most crisis or whatever, the m the major link between them. Whether it was drugs, relationships, or whatever, you know, you work with a lot of kids, you see all the stuff. It was just they had a parent or parents that just stopped parenting them. And at some point in time were just like I'd rather I'd just rather be your buddy. Yeah, for mostly selfish reasons, unfortunately. Like it's like it's more comfortable to it's more comfortable. I'm it doesn't feel good to be disliked by you, and especially when you have your kids, when they're little, they just love you so much. They think you're awesome. And I used to say things that I don't believe in anymore, like I want to be my son's hero. I'm not gonna be my son's hero. Right. Like, how many parents, how many people is like, my dad is my hero? Yeah. I want my kids to be like, despite all his faults, he tried hard. Yes, yes. I just want to be like, that's that that's it. Um yeah, no, I want to be a good father, not a perfect, I don't need to be their hero. I don't need to be their best friend. And I actually think those that's important to remember because which I think is the ultimate thing is like to recognize that you aren't you aren't Jesus. Right. Your your your job is to guide them toward Jesus. Yes. It's not a good thing. They should look at Jesus and like him more than you and be like, wow, Jesus is so much my dad and my dad. Yeah, they should. They should, but sticking to those guns, if if you make decisions that are primarily about alleviating pain, if that's your main filter for anything for parenting specifically for parenting. For parenting. If it's just like I just do this because I mean, we all know that it's whether it's little kids and what they eat when they go to the body. Well, no, we're talking about teenagers right now, primarily, but I think that is uh unfortunately the dynamic when it comes to like the iPad kids. Like kids with iPads that are just constantly Yeah, hand them the iPad. Hand them on the iPad. They they they shut up, and that's true, and it is easier to live. You can do the dishes, but I've seen and Hannah Hannah, my wife is so much better at than better at it than me. But like by the way, we we give them our phones sometimes at restaurants. Like there'll come a point where we'll be eating out. I'm not trying to call you out in any I'm just saying culturally what I see happening. I recognize that it's not the best thing to do. Right, right. I'm not saying we when we're cooking dinner, it's like please watch another episode of Octonauts or Pokemon. Like, please, like just leave me alone. Like there's there's a certain level of of you need your sanity. But I'm what I'm talking about is just like that culture of like my kids' primary role is to be quiet, and the way that I make them be quiet is by putting a screen in front of them 24-7. Yeah, you treat it like a drug at that point, like here. But then I guess my point about Hannah is like she's so good about, and I'm sure Megan does the same, like inviting the kids into the process of like being in the home, and you're like, Can you cook these pancakes with me? And I'm like, I never cook pancakes with my kids. Like it's it's messy, it's challenging. I can't do that. Why do you assume Megan cooks? I'm just saying, like, moms are good at the house. I'm not the one that cooks. All right. I'm the one that cooks. Well. Okay. So but when Hannah cooks, she actually invites Simon into it. And it's like, wow, like that's a we don't really do that with cooking, but we'll help them like set the table and like there's there's aspects of it, too. Yeah, like where you're given responsibility, that's m that's raising your kids up. Yeah. You know, like that's calling them to a higher level. So I'll say like our house, we don't maybe I'm just trying to feel good about myself. Um like we don't ever let them have devices at dinner or anything like that. I think the only time we do that is is when they're when we're at a restaurant. Right. And it's just like Yeah, you know, I mean that's why most a lot of parents just don't go to restaurants. You're like, I'm just I we had a whole season where we didn't go to restaurants because I realized like I have four kids, so it's expensive. Right. It's like I just paid $100 to have a horrible time. All I did was yell and eat my food as fast as I can. And then I ate half of their food because they wouldn't eat their food. And you can't look at the waitress and be like, we're not gonna order them anything because they won't really eat it. And so we're just gonna order for ourselves because you feel like a jerk. Okay, but back to that. Point being, if it's just about stopping the pain, if it's just about solving the like immediate problem, um, that's not gonna long term be calling them to a higher standard or even right, or even building like trust or relationship or conversation. Like you're c you're you're carving all of that out in the instant of giving. It's like how many times would Jesus have been just to the disciples, like, okay, fine. Yeah. Should we call should we burn them up? Like yeah, fine, go kill them. Since you asked, go kill them. Go. I'm tired of it. You guys have asked so many times. Right. Okay, fine. All right, fine. You're the best disciple. And so that's you guys do yeah, that's the pestering bucket. So you gotta hold hold tight, hold true. And I would say too, on endurance is a really important thing. It's funny, as far as faith goes, in the whole uh in all the descriptions of faith, even the four the four soils that Jesus teaches, you know, that like representance is like the the really only defining characteristic of the real faith. It's it's not excitement. Sure. Excitement's actually the second one where it's like it's excited but it dies quickly. And then the third one is it grows but then it gets tangled up and distracted. But it's act the one other one, it just like it takes root, endures. And endures. So endure. You're the parent. Yeah, well, and endurance assumes suffering. Yes. Like that it's gonna be hard. And interestingly enough, and we'll move on to the next bucket. The uh there's a book called Grace-Based Parenting. Okay, and I don't even know how good it is. Uh but you're like the classic. Like, I read the first chapter, it was really great, and they had this idea. Well, most most books Which is great. Most of those books, the only good ideas are in like the first channel. It needed to be an essay. Yeah, it should have been a that makes the chapter titles, sentences, and then just all in a row, and you'd have exactly what you need. Dude, one time there was a TED talk that was like 17 minutes long and it blew my mind. Yeah. And so I bought the book and I read it. And I was like, that was a huge waste of time. Because the TED talk was it was like everything I needed was in the. I could have just 17 minutes. Okay, anyway. Um, but this book, Grace Based Parenting, had had a it did have one thing that really hit me. And basically it said, if you're if you're too hard on your kids, they'll rebel. If you're too strict. That's a real thing. You can be so strict that they just their freedom is so infringed upon. Right. And especially if it's a freedom about everything and anything, they get no freedom, they'll rebel. Um, but if you don't parent them, if you don't provide appropriate structure, they'll resent you. And you don't think about that. Like the kid who's in the fifth grade and is like, my mom lets me stay up as late as I want, eat whatever I want, got me a phone, got me a second phone. Right. I play Fortnite as long. That kid in fifth grade is like, my mom's the best, or my dad, or whatever. I'm not saying mom, I'm just using that same kid will not like love their par think their parents are awesome when they're in their 20s, even if they don't know how to dis to say it. Because some part of them will recognize, like, you didn't do what you were supposed to do. You're supposed to raise me. You're supposed to teach me. I needed structure. They may not rationalize it, but studies have actually shown that if there's not enough structure in a home, then there's actually not not rebellion, resentment. So parent your children. Yeah if you're gonna make the decision, get them a phone, don't let it be based on your discomfort. Let it be based on what's their what's good for them. Right. And that's where it's like to the other buckets. If it's answering the question and satisfying it in a in a helpful way, then that's totally fine. And so the other buckets were the the safety. Yeah, bucket two, safety. Yeah. Do phones make kids safer? Um I'll be honest. Well, it depends on if depends on what you're afraid of or what you think depends on what you think is dangerous. And if what is the pro like, what are the primary dangers of of childhood? If you think it's predators out there in the world who are following your children, then a phone. Right. Yeah, I get that. And I don't, you know, I can't speak to every situation. I don't have like a store of data in my brain that just has all the the the numbers. This is not financial advice. I'm not a I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a lawyer. Um This is not medical advice. This is just my opinion. But the the the risk of you know, kidnapping and abuse and and all of that, like it does come, you know, closer to home than we would assume that it does, usually. It's usually an estranged parent or a relative of some sort. Right. Um, it's not as often, it's not never, but it's not as often um that it's a stranger. Um and so the the environmental danger there, I don't think is as real as it is felt by the generation raised up on Stranger Danger. But what I think that that generation misses out on is the stranger danger that comes when you have that device that's connected to the internet. You you don't think about it that you're creating an an inroad, a way into your you're creating a in your home. Sure. You're letting people that you don't know in your home. Yeah. 100%. I had people that I knew in middle school. Did you have a phone in middle school? I did, I had uh probably I'm trying to think of when I got my first cell phone. It was probably eighth grade. Okay. Yeah, but it was like a track phone that you had to like pay by the minute. Oh, yeah. You were so when you're saying that you you were like on a laptop or something, you had devices that yeah. So like I had Xbox or I had um you know video games, and so or my cousins did, and like we we had this guy, uh Comets Angel. That's what his name was. He was just like his gamer tag. Yeah, and like we'd be we'd play with him all summer long. We were playing with Comets Angel, and we were like, we thought he was the coolest guy because he had basically a deep voice and didn't sound like a little girl.

You'd be like, Oh sweet, Comets Angel's on. Let's get in with him.

He's this guy who gets all these pings from like these kids want to play. He's like, come play Halo with us. Yeah, we'll play Halo. And so, like when I when I yeah, when I reflect on that, he he wasn't sinister and nothing weird ever happened, but it was like it would be a little bit weird if I was like playing at the playground and I saw like with my kids, right? And I saw like a 35-year-old dude playing, like pushing one. Like, he's going down the slides. Like, we pulled up to the playground last week. You wouldn't assume he has good intentions. Right. We we pulled up to the playground last week, and there was a a guy like looking out across the park, but he was standing on the top of like one of the slide areas, and Simon just went, There's a grown-up on this playground. And I was like, Yeah, there is a grown-up on the playground. Hopefully, he stops being on the playground by the time we get there. Yeah, that's interesting. And so the stranger danger dynamic, it's like it's not that your kids are going to be kidnapped, but it's I mean, I I don't want to be the fear mongerer, but like grooming is a real thing. Yeah, their brain might be hijacked, you know. It's not kidnapped. So I had a dad that met with me. Um this again isn't to induce fear or guilt if you've already done this and experienced this. Just to recognize the the problem that you're trying to solve is the stranger danger. Yes. And I don't think that it's as it's at the very least, it's at the very least not a sen it's like it might solve it to some degree, but it opens it up in another way. You know what I mean? It's like, I mean, you know, like a great trick for if you have a really if your uh leg hurts really bad and you don't want to feel that pain, you could have someone break your finger. Because now you're not gonna feel the pain in the leg anymore. But now you have a broken finger, yeah, and that hurts too. So it's at the very least a trade-off, and I think is what we're saying. So he was like talking, he did the whole first bucket, which was you know, my daughter bother bugged me, and he said, I finally got her phone, and she like hugged me and was like, Thank you, thank you, oh, you're the best. And he said, That's a day I lost my daughter. He's like, because that from that day on, she basically stayed in her room on her device all the time. I didn't know who she was talking to half the time. She's a different person today, and not like in a oh, she's grown up and matured. Like, I don't recognize this person. And a lot of it has to do with the fact that the other people that he doesn't even know have significant influence in her life, whether it's through social media or and I will even say this before you go on like everyone has a kid who has a child. There's a kid that you're goes to your kid's school, maybe they're even friends with your kid, maybe they're not, but you're like, I don't like that kid, and I don't want that kid in my house. Like there are there are there was a there was a kid when my son was in the first grade who came over once, and they kid this kid was like a six-year-old, and I he left and I was like, I don't like that kid. He's a six-year-old. Because the first time he was in my house, he and my son, which my son had never done this before, they were throwing apples at our wall. And I was like, what in the world? Right, so this kid was just a little, whatever. But you don't you there's probably kids that you would never let come over and just hang out in your kids' room because you're like, I don't trust that kid. But they're that they're in there, right, with the phone. And I guess that's the the with the divine the thing is like the core issue. You said, like, what's the core part of us? Is it a spiritual part? And if the core part of us is spiritual, like and you uh of your kids is spiritual, it's your job to help shape that core part as much as you possibly can. Right. And if you're letting that influence again, the stranger danger is not that they're gonna kidnap um their body essentially, but it's gonna capture their mind, capture capture their soul or curiosity or whatever. And I think that's the the stranger danger that should be more recognized. Um and it does lead to physical danger. We know we know this. That's well, that's the main way, for example, and again, not about fear mongering. The main way that like sexual predators it's not they don't just show up unannounced at a house. That happens, I'm sure. There's kidnappings and things like you've talked about, but it's online grooming, and the kid starts talking to them, not knowing who they are, and they say, Hey, meet me somewhere here, and they do, and it's like a willing, it's a it's a trick, but it's a it's like worked out. Right. You know what I mean? And so online, and again, not about fear-mongering, but the the point is if if the primary bucket uh that is informing your decision is safety, ask yourself the question do I believe that this makes them more safe? Or do I at least believe that the way I'm letting them use it makes them more safe? And if the answer is no, then either get rid of it or change the way you let them use it. Yeah. And and too, I think that it's probably answering the same the same question that that first bucket was answering of like solving some personal um problem for you. It's like is it really their safety or is it my anxiety? It's my anxiety that if I can keep tabs on them, then I will feel more comfortable rather than developing trust and going through the hardship of they were late. Finding Nemo. Right. You know, like in that movie, it's like we laugh at those movies, it's a good lesson, but you know, you think you can do this, but you just can't, Nemo. Yeah, he says it's a Nemo. I they're they when when they're swallowed in the whale, this is such a which by the way happens in like multiple Disney movies. Sure. There's a they're in a whale's belly. It's biblical. It is biblical. It's good. We don't know what Jonah did in the whale, if he talked to fish or whatever. But basically he's like, you know, because a bad thing happened to Nemo's family, he's like, I promised I would never let anything happen to him. And then the dumb fish story is like, that sounds pretty terrible. Yeah. But it's true. If you never what'd she say? What she says is really profound. If you never let him do anything, then I don't know. It's like some it's something good. It's great. We should probably just look it up. Yeah, just watch it fine, watch finding Nemo. Uh, but point is that's obviously a simplified version of it, but there is a certain degree where at the very least, examine yourself. Examine your heart. Um like knowing what's going on. I mean, there's so many psalms where David is clearly aware of his own heart. Sure. Where he's like, like, what's going on inside of me? Yep. You know, there's an issue here. Can you can you help me work through this? It's like when people say follow your heart, the Bible would never say that. Because like Psalms says that the human heart is wicked above all else. Who can know the who can know how truly wicked it is or something along those lines, right? So just examine yourself and say, is this really about their safety, or is this about my fear and anxiety? Yeah. And if that's the truth, own it. Yeah. Like I need them to have a phone because otherwise I'd be a mess. Right. And there might be a circumstance that, because we don't know everybody's circumstance, like there might be a situation where you do need to know where your kid is at. And that that's a completely appropriate way to have um that relationship built. Um, but just understand that that's the reason you're getting it for them. It comes with all this other stuff. Make sure it's at least solving that s that problem. And also be aware of the fact that there is growing evidence that suggests that children never being outside of their parents' purview is leading to like it's developing this like risk aversion to a degree that is not wisdom, it's debilitating. I can't remember. Yeah, it's anxiety, but it's it's it's not. I used to go all kinds of places my parents didn't know where I was more than they even know. There were times I spent the night at a friend's house, and I'm not staying at that friend's house. And I'm not talking about in high school, I'm talking about in fact when I was in high school once, this is a true story, and we'll move on. My mom I spent the night at a friend's house. My mom came to that house that morning because she couldn't get a hold of me. I think I had a cell phone. Oh, I didn't have a cell phone yet. That's right. I told her I was gonna be, I didn't have a cell phone until I was in college, and uh she called the house and no one answered. And it's because me and like three other friends were s were there, but there was a guy who lived at their house, he was a little older. I think he was like, he wasn't a brother, but he was like a cousin or something. Yeah, and so he didn't know we were there. So my mom pulls up and she's like, I'm looking for Justin. He's like, Oh, Justin's not here. And my mom, so I get home, she's like, Where were you? And I was like, I was literally there the whole night. And it's true. And she finally trusted me, but there were other times that she had no idea. Yeah. And I'm not saying that those were good moments, but I'm saying that I did again, really bad things could have happened and maybe it would have been the end of me.

Sure.

But what they ended up being were times where I messed up and didn't get caught. And that and but like You integrated the boundary into your mind. Yes, you're like, this is the way I learned. I threw a rock at my brother once, and I wanted him to move. It was a big, like, heavy rock. And as soon as I let go of the rock, I said, I hope this doesn't kill my brother. I really did. His brother. Benji. Yeah, yeah. And he moved out of the way. But I was like, from that day forward, I never threw a rock at my body. I got a good buddy that threw a hammer at his brother one time, and the brother dodged and went through the wall behind him, and he was like, That would have killed me. Right. He's like, But you missed, so whatever. But um, so the third bucket is that social bucket, and this is the bucket, honestly. Was that the third bucket? I mean, the third bucket you had was the confirmation bias. They they they need training on this. Oh, let's do let's do this one in two seconds. Um, it's not hard to use a phone. You didn't get one until you were 30 something if you're a certain age, and you're fine on it. And you sound okay, this okay. I'm gonna say it more trying to be more loving. It sounds like parents who might have that argument of like, I'd rather them drink at home. It's like, no, they're 16, they don't need to drink. Just have that be a rule that they don't drink. Right, right. Like that way they know how they can handle alcohol, and it's like, no, we've discovered that this is bad for you. Yeah. Don't you don't need to teach them how to do it before they're exactly and I it makes sense on a logical level of saying, yeah, they are gonna need to know how to use these devices, they're gonna get a job one day, and they can't go to a job like I don't have a cell phone. That's probably not a thing. Sure. But don't overestimate the difficulty of you, you could wait until they're out of your house and they can decide if they want to find it. Because three-year-olds can handle phones. Right. You give it to them and they're better at it than you would imagine fast. Yeah. So just again, that makes sense. I'm not trying to to like undermine and offend, but it's just it's it's probably that that's probably doesn't rise to the level of no. It sounds better than in the reality of what it actually accomplishes. Yeah, but the the social aspect I think is pretty real. That's bucket number four. That's a big one. And I do think that there is a reality to the way that kids communicate. Again, my my question, and this is an open question for me, obviously, but my question is like is giving your kid a phone enabling them to be more social, or is it actually just fostering unhealthy behaviors with their friends? Like, that's so funny because as the phone use has increased, antisocial behavior has increased. Right. And so, like if you're trying to create a culture in your home where you're discipling your kids, like fellowship is the word, it's like the Bible word, like like an enriching and fully awesome like community, you know, friendship, hanging out, eating dinner together, sharing a meal, all of that. Like, are you creating spaces for them to fellowship, quote unquote, or is it just that they're, you know, constantly like barely talking to people or being more friends? Now, some of you are raising kids in a homeschool environment or like at a co-op where it's like once a week is the only time they see kids and it's at church. It's like that kid might need a phone, or he might need a a device that allows them to like play video games with their friends so that they have shared experiences with their friends beyond just that one day a week. Right. Um, but for most kids, um, and we can get to this in a different episode, they might just need a break from their friends. Yeah, I would like to make this uh I think the next episode should be, and we can probably do this one faster, but just the unintended, the unintended consequences of having a device. Maybe we just go into some of that. Um, because a lot of times there's things you don't think about, right? We've touched on this a little bit, but we could probably do that and have it be its own. Yeah, so I guess that last bucket would be is this actually helping your kid be more social? If your answer is yes, totally fine. And again, we'll we'll go over restrictions, unintended consequences on another one. But answer those questions, be able to answer why. And here's the the thing, Justin mentioned it earlier. Is like, this is one of the one cases where I do think that you can put the toothpaste back in the tube or like the genie back in the bottle, like where we were talking about repenting. Like, if you say, like, actually, as I think about those questions, the phone is only doing negative things to my kids. We did that with Fortnite, right? So, this is an it's kind of a cliched example. Liam begged us to get this game that we used to be all maybe it still is, but it was when he was in fourth grade, he's in seventh now. It was all the rage. Yeah, and it's like if you didn't have Fortnite, it was the as a boy, like you're not alive. Yeah. And so we finally relented, and he became it was like the cliche within three weeks. He was like this stressed out monster who was just like on edge all the time, and he snapped at us, and we just were like, This no. And so we got to like, no, you're done. Right. Never and and he actually got to the point after three, four weeks of that, like, I don't want this anymore anyway. So yeah, but we put the toothpaste came back into the box. Like you said, into the tube. The the students or the teenagers will appreciate the structure, they will appreciate having their time back. They might appreciate having time to rest, they might appreciate not being tracked all the time. They might, you know, it's like they might actually respect you, and that relationship of trust might build a little bit more if you're able to kind of put the toothpaste back in the tube. Um, but it'll just be a challenge for a student. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, there you go. To buy or not to buy, to buy the question to device, to not device, should you even should you even phone, bro? Um is that how can you but the point is know why you know you're discipling your children. Does this device help you do that? And if and or even if you believe it's a necessary evil, you believe it's a necessity, well then I'm gonna do it in a way where I'm gonna be so aware of why I'm doing it and what the purpose is and what the dangers are that I'm going to uh I'm gonna do it intentionally, and we're gonna we're gonna get into more of that in episodes to come. Sweet. So with that said, thanks for listening. Um, this is all about how to raise your kids so that they love Jesus and follow Jesus and you're you're discipling them, not just, you know, not what would the other option be if you're not discipling them. You're just sort of just letting them be the thing. Yeah. Um, but either way, thanks for listening and looking forward to to more conversations in the future.