His Hands Church
His Hands Church
Should I Restrict My Kids' Phone Use?
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Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Raising Kids Who Follow Jesus. I'm Justin. And I'm Madison. And today we're kind of doing a little bit of a of a follow-up to what we talked about last time, which was should I even get my kid a phone? And actually what's cool is we had a parenting class here at our church. We both work at His Hands Church in the Atlanta, Georgia area. You're the you're the youth pastor. You work with all the youth. I do.
SPEAKER_01And I work with all the elderly people.
SPEAKER_00That's what they call me.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. What is a not what is a non-youth? An adult.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You work with all the adults. I I work with, yeah, sure. I'm the adult pastor. No, I'm just the pastor. And it's funny, our c our church is funny. Like we use those terms here because they're recognizable and people know it. We don't even have titles. So senior pastor. Senior lead arch pastor. No, like like the number one thing I have to tell people is like not to call me pastor. Right. And I'm like, hey, just call me Justin. And they're like, what? And I'm like, well, yeah, Jesus said, let no one call you father, for we all have one father. Let no one call you teacher. So please just call me Justin. And I think half the people call me Justin. A third of people call me Justin. A third of people call me pastor because their old habits die hard. And a third of people call me Jason.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm better with the first and the third.
SPEAKER_01My name's Madison, and people just aren't comfortable with me having a girl's name. And so they call me Matt a lot or Mason. Right. And so but you were saying we had a parenting class.
SPEAKER_00And you're name well, you're named real quick. Madison, you're named after your great great great grandfather?
SPEAKER_01No, two greats.
SPEAKER_00So is this a name that used to be a guy's name? Because like Ashley, in English history, I know Ashley was a male man.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so do you want the story? A real quick version. Um the quick version is that there was a model in the 80s who was named Madison, and then there was a Tom Hanks movie Splash in 1985, which uh Tom Hanks Daryl Hannah. Yep, featured a mermaid who didn't have a name. They're walking down Madison Avenue. She decides that she wants to be named Madison. Up until then, it was a guy's name, and then the early 90s it became a girl's name. It was a family name for me, and we didn't know it was a girl's name yet. So I always had at least one girl Madison in my class, other than me. And so that's just been a thing. Now, the generation now, but like the high schoolers now, they know Madison. It's like becoming a boy's name again. So I don't know what what's going on there.
SPEAKER_00You're just cutting edge.
SPEAKER_01Or just yeah, just like a weird blip.
SPEAKER_00And all comes around at some point. Yeah. So we had a parenting class. We had a parenting class. And this was uh uh uh not that long ago, and it was after we recorded our our last episode, so we were like fresh with information, right? Right, ready to sh ready to ready to talk. And a a couple asked, when should we get our kids a phone? And our response was it's not so much about when, but why. Right. Because that's really what we talked about in our last episode, is is know why you're getting the phone and and what problem you think it's going to solve. And we really identified four four buckets. There was the social bucket, like this is how kids relate now, so I need one, otherwise I can't be a kid. There was the safety bucket, you know, parents are like, well, especially when they start driving, they're going places, okay. There's that one. There was the this is like the smallest bucket, I think, the one that was basically like you gotta train them sometimes. Yeah, they gotta know. And then the the the main what you would probably say is the main bucket you see is the the the main reason people say yes to that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, is like the fighting bucket, like the I'm tired of this company. Don't want to fight anymore.
SPEAKER_00And so a phone and it'll it'll be over.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we we jumped into why on uh on the last episode, but on this episode, like those are the problems you're trying to solve. We kind of wanted to address like the problems um because there's unintended problems that come with it, right? What are those problems and how can you restrict your kids' phone? We wanted to kind of get really practical um too.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, it's kind of interesting. So at the time that we're recording this, I'm actually working on a message series that's about the time that the people of Israel were first wandering around in the wilderness after they've escaped Egypt, but before they're like established. And we're calling it figuring out freedom. And I was I'm just really preparing for this right now. Like, what do you need to what do you really need to function well in freedom? And where I'm where we're at right now is a few things. One is is confidence, one is patience. We're gonna talk about that's kind of maybe seems like an odd one. But the third one is actually like beneficial boundaries. Because like freedom is a positive term. Most people hear the word freedom and they're like, that's a good thing, but like a free-for-all is a bad thing. If you say, like, oh, it was a free-for-all. It was a free-for-all at the dairy queen. You're like, someone died. What happened? Yeah. I got stabbed with a cone. Right. You know, but like, so we recognize there's some level of freedom that is actually too much, and it creates all kinds of problems. And so with a phone, with a device that's connected to all the things that it can be connected to, and recognizing that most people listening to this will have already crossed that line. Most people get their kids a device fairly early, or whatever that looks like, should it just be alright, make good choices. Right. Or I trust my kid, like I have a I have a good kid. I have a good kid, and I don't think they would ever do that. Or should we provide, just like God did with the people of Israel in the wilderness, hey, now that you're free, and now that there's way more possibilities, here are some beneficial boundaries that are gonna, if you if you follow these, it'll go well for you. And you've put it this way, you've talked about how there's really three options once you get your kids a phone. There's really three options of how you know you're gonna go about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the free-for-all, which I wouldn't recommend. And then there's this dynamic of like I'm party to everything that happens on my kids' phone, whether that's you downloading some sort of spyware or some sort of um I take my kid's phone and look through everything.
SPEAKER_00I have total visibility. I mean, if they don't know about it, technically I'm spying on them. Correct. But it might even be that it's known, like hey, you know, right, which I don't see it all.
SPEAKER_01Which I also just have where I stand on that is like if you don't trust your kid to have the phone that you need to be party to all those conversations and activity, maybe it they're not ready to have the phone yet. That makes sense. And so then that that final category would be um to restrict it and to have really wise restrictions that are age specific. Um that'll kind of be a range of things.
SPEAKER_00What if we said beneficial boundaries because it there's alliteration and it just sounds nicer than restrictions?
SPEAKER_01Beneficial boundaries.
SPEAKER_00What beneficial boundaries would you like? That's so much nicer than what restrictions. I'm just joking, I don't care. But so basically summing that up, the the free-for-all, free reign, just go with it and your opinion is that, and I would share this phones are just too powerful in terms of what they can allow you to do. And we know this, like kids have ruined their like there are people who have ruined their lives, at least in the short term, because of the access that their phones had, whether it's exposure to certain things, or even they posted something on social media once, and now that is it's forever on the internet. It's forever on the internet and it will forever define you. Um it's just too powerful of a thing to just hand it to them and go, good luck.
SPEAKER_01Too sharp a tool, like you you don't hand a kid a sharp tool unless they're ready to use it. And that's why like I've I've talked about this before, but um, like when your dad gets you a knife, there's just like a thing. And you said you didn't understand that.
SPEAKER_00You said that, and I was like, Did I ever Is that like a thing? I well, I've got three boys and I've got I've given none of them knives. So I'm thinking, is this something that men do that I just missed? I think maybe maybe one day you'll get your kid a knife. Well, we hadn't I had a pocket knife as a kid. I grew up in the world. Yeah, so when did you when did you get your pocket knife? I think I found one in a box in a closet. And I was like, Dad, can I have this? And he's like, Sure. Sure. Okay. I really think that's what it was. But it wasn't like a it's your time, son.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, you were probably old enough to handle that and at least understand, like, hey, this is sharp.
SPEAKER_00I should ask my dad.
SPEAKER_01I can like whittle a stick with it, but I'm at the risk of cutting myself, versus like a much younger kid would be like, I'm instantly opening this to cut you.
SPEAKER_00You recognize, okay, this this needs there's a certain maturity level that's there. And so the point is it's just too sharp a tool. Right. They're free-for-all, free reign approach, maybe not good. And then this the spying thing, not look, it's a I think it's a parent's right. Yeah, definitely. It's a right you want to utilize wisely because you can lose a lot of you can lose trust. You can sometimes the spying just makes them work harder to hide.
SPEAKER_01I would say m most times. Sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So my point is there's downsides to that. Um, but there's like it's like, I don't know, like in governments, there's probably a necessity to have spies, but there's a lot of risk in having spies too. So your stance is hey, if you really don't trust them enough to use it without you having a lot of of oversight to where you maybe they're maybe just wait a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Or or communicate to them if they're bothering you about it, like communicate to them why you don't trust them, why you don't trust them.
SPEAKER_00You well, son, you just make terrible choices. Right. And so uh, you know, until that changes, we're not gonna.
SPEAKER_01If you have a kid that does, I mean that's a that's a an okay conversation to have.
SPEAKER_00You get in trouble for all the things you say at school already, and I just don't want that to be I just don't want you to get a megaphone. I wouldn't hand you a megaphone in your club. That totally would have been what it was for me because I was so mouthy. Right. That I if you would have given me a phone with social media and all that stuff in today's world when I was like sixth, seventh grade, I don't even want to know what dumb stuff I would have put out there trying to be funny. Right. You know?
SPEAKER_01And so then beneficial boundaries.
SPEAKER_00Beneficial boundaries, restrictions that are wise. Sure. And I think the way we're gonna approach this is we both we both believe we have restrictions on our phones. Yes. Um, I mean, full disclosure. Too sharp a tool for it. Too sharp a tool for an adult. And so that's it's funny, like scre Apple devices have what's called screen time, which we can limit. And it's almost always seen. I like that they call it screen time and not parental controls, because parental controls imply this is only for children.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Like adults should use screen time because it's helpful to so that's a beneficial boundary. We're gonna explore um some of the whys. Like what are we trying to provide protection from? If I'm driving on a road and there's a cliff on one side, there's probably gonna be some type of guardrail. And it's not just there arbitrarily, it's so I don't go off the ravine to my death. What are the what are those ravines? And then you know, toward the end, okay, practically. Because a lot of parents might not even know. I said parents weird, I said like parents. Parents. A lot of parents might not know what you can even do and not do. Um so let's start here. What are some of the major pitfalls that go along with having a phone, which, like we said in the last episode, is really a supercomputer, right? It's not really a phone. Right. Um and let's start with one that maybe is a little bit surprising. It's not the obvious one that people always start with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I would say constant access from your friends at school. But I like my friends at school. But do you need to talk to them all the time? Right. And and is it healthy to talk to your friends all the time? And I mean, you've spoken to the level of like yeah, I mean, think of middle school. Middle school was dramatic. Like there was drama in middle school.
SPEAKER_00Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01And to go home and never be able to take a break from the drama, I think might be a burden on our kids, even if they don't perceive it as a burden.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I have a few practical one is my own life, and the other is is the is what's something I saw with my son. So I went through a pretty rough stretch in like eighth grade, eighth grade, early ninth grade. I I had, and and this is I'm pulling the the heart, I'm pulling the curtain back a little bit, okay? So I don't even think you know this about me, but it's not gonna surprise you. So I had four straight girlfriends that broke up with me the day after I asked them out and they said yes, which is a real weird thing. In a row? Yeah. Like I asked a girl out and she's like, I'm like, you know, whatever that looked like in eighth, ninth grade, like, will you be my girlfriend? You know, I can't even remember how I did it. Like, what's up, girl? Something crazy. But it was in person? Oh, definitely. Yeah, I wasn't writing notes. No, I know. It was probably But now I'm saying texting and all that. Yeah, and they each said yes. And then the next day they changed their minds. And I was like, what is wrong with me? That the first impression, but then they go home and think about it and like, oh what have I done? And it was like the last one that did that, it was pretty like demoralizing. Like, I'm I'll never do this again. I'm so broken. Um, and I remember coming home from a few of those just so down. But the fact that I had a whole night at home to not maybe dwell on it, or not have to dwell on it, be able to even tune my brain out, or sometimes a weekend was nice. But if I would have had had like text message after text message of like, hey, I heard you she broke up with you, are you okay? Hey, I heard you guys broke up. Did you guys break up?
SPEAKER_01Or just like said, You're trash, like like how oh, you got broke up with again, like people dunking on you, you know.
SPEAKER_00And that okay, so that's what I okay, I'm glad you said that. That's the other one is my son, when he was in the fourth grade, we moved to a new school. And it didn't go great because boys at that age are very competitive. And he had been just as competitive as his his friends at the last school, but they had years of relationship to sort of contextualize that. At the new school, it's just uh none of these kids know me. I don't know them. We weren't at each other's first grade birthday parties, so no one's gotten anyone's presence before, right? You haven't bought their love. And we just compete at recess and we compete in class, and now we get home and we jump on, you know, for him it was like an online game, and it just continued that. So I would hear in the and I would hear as I'd walk by his room, like it's just constant boys being like, You're trash, you're garbage, I sniped you, you're you're terrible. Oh no, no, you're I'll trash you, go on anytime. And he was just like like in this heightened state of tension all the time. And I realized, oh, this is what he deals with at school all day, and now there's no break from it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, to take a break. I'm gonna go play video games, take a break, and you just step back into the intensity.
SPEAKER_00It's just more. And I'm I mean, a good way I think to think about it is if your kid asks if a friend can come sleep over, you're like, what's the sh what's the hours I'm committing to? How long do I think it's appropriate for that kid to be in my house? Right. And who? And who, right? Who is it and how? And with with the phones and the unlimited restrictions, you're basically allowing all of your kids' friends to be in your home all the time and they never get a break, they never get a pause. And that's just that's hard.
SPEAKER_01I mean, and the drama never ends. The drama on the the more heightened sense of the drama, kids that are going through on on the extreme end with their friends, like something like depression or anxiety or suicidality, like the the friend circle for that friend that's struggling gets roped into that into the late hours of the night where they're getting texted, they're getting called, they're getting like basically like their Friday night, instead of being in their room and going to sleep or playing some video games and going to bed, like it's roped into a highly, highly emotional thing that they're not even prepared for because that friend is reaching out for you know advice.
SPEAKER_00And so, I mean, I'm so glad you mentioned that. So, one thing I think I've I I feel pretty strongly like I can say about most human beings, even the really good ones, is that most of the time we choose the path of least resistance. Right? So if given two options and one is just harder or more awkward, we're gonna pick the one that's not. So think about a kid who is because that whole suicide thing you mentioned, I mean, I know for a fact that we've we've had so many kids in the youth group and oh, that's definitely a thing. Or they get texts. Right. I'm I I might kill myself tonight. And that's like, what does that do to a 13-year-old that their friend is texting them at? But even the fact that the the path of least resistance, you know, that's a kid who should probably go talk to someone else about that. Right. But who are they gonna reach out to? Well, the easiest person to reach out to, which is just send a text or send 20 texts and see who responds. See who responds. And I know we had a girl in like the fourth grade that my wife was working with, and she broke down in tears on a Sunday morning and she was exhausted. And her friend, and and I think she sh I believe I'm if this is wrong, I apologize, but I think she showed her phone to my my wife because she had the phone, and she had gotten text like constantly the night before, and had just spent the whole night awake or being woken up by the most heavy, I would say even like emotionally manipulative.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, and clearly the kid struggling doesn't know how to handle handle or regulate that. The kid that's get getting the texts doesn't know how to set boundaries with friends, and so they're just trying to be a good friend. And so on the drama end, they never get a break from that. But two, even if your kid is not like doesn't have friends that are, you know, isn't a drama drama llama or whatever, like your kid might be like the funny kid, and the pressure to perform in the group chat and to be the center of attention or to send the funniest memes, like all of that is still a burden on your child when they get home from school. Right.
SPEAKER_00They're the class kind of school, they feel that I'm the I'm supposed to be the one that makes the funny jokes, and now I don't get to go home and like I imagine comedians aren't cracking jokes at the dinner table left and right. That would be exhausting. But they feel that pressure, right? Yeah, or or let's be really like honest, you're the girl who everyone thinks is pretty. Sure. And so at school, you know, you get ready for school, and this has been a constant I I've never I've never been a girl, but I think I can say that the constant for as long as there's been school has been that girls want to look their best at school a lot of times, right? So if you're that the the pretty girl, you want to dress nice and you know look whatever at school, and then it used to end, and you come home and now you have to have the cutest home life too in the prettiest, like everyone. You gotta get home and snap the picture. And I mean, I've seen my daughter just a little bit with like she doesn't have a phone, she's nine, but she has there's cameras on everything, right? And like the number of selfies that she'll take, just playing around. And I'm like, where's she even seen this modeled? Because I don't take selfies, right? Megan takes a few rarely, sure. But something in her just I don't know, friends probably at school. But it's like, what are you doing? Oh, I've spent the last 30 minutes trying to take the perfect picture of myself, and she can't even post it on anything, right? But I imagine there's a lot of girls who get home, and like what do you spend your afternoon doing? And probably guys too. I'm not trying to say I'm just using the cliched, you know, I guess cliches, but it's like, oh, I spent the whole day trying to take a really perfect picture of myself to post on social media, and then using all kinds of filters to make it yeah, and that's just not and all of it that pressure is too much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it all of it's a burden, yes, and I think that's what it comes down to when it comes to raising kids that follow Jesus. Like Jesus says, Come to me who you who are heavy laden and burdened, and I will give you rest. Right. And rest for your souls. And so to create a rest for their souls, yeah, where your kids, teenagers or not, can have soul rest, meaningful rest that's not or like intentional rest. Maybe it's time spent with the Lord, or maybe it's just a break from all of the crazy.
SPEAKER_00And it's really hard to have soul rest when you have when everyone you know pings you pings you every second. Yeah. Of oh yeah. Yeah. Agreed.
SPEAKER_01And so that constant access from you know, drama or the pressure to perform is one of the pitfalls that you're kind of gonna guard against. But another one is probably probably the more obvious one is exposure, exposure to pornography, exposure to I see it a lot um more recently to like violent images or things that are just like horrifying as true crime has kind of raised in popularity and things like that have gone on. Or um lastly, a exposure to ideology that you wouldn't necessarily want your kid to believe. Something you you said, where did this like tendency to take selfies come from in Lily? Um, but the idea that, like, hey, you believe something crazy now that I've never said, where did that come from?
SPEAKER_00Right. And I'm I'm saying right, distracted because I'm looking at my phone right now, texting someone while you're talking, which is ironic. But I just want to say in my defense, my my car broke down, and our friend Warren is in the parking lot right now trying to find out. And he just texts me, hey, do you is it okay if I go do this? So it was like a Yeah, no worries. And I told him, text me, don't call me. But even in this moment is interrupted by that. So you're like, where did they where did they learn that?
SPEAKER_01Where did they learn this and what are they seeing? And so that exposure piece is uh the other big um element of what you're protecting your kids against.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so exposure, okay, like let's just get real for a second. Most of what's on the internet is is bad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, which is that fair?
SPEAKER_01Is that is that too pessimistic? I think I think it's pessimistic. I think again, it's like a lot of what's on the internet is if you don't use the the internet as a specific tool, then like most of browsing the internet, most of just chilling on the internet, like exploring whatever whim you have in the moment on the internet. I think that's probably just an unhealthy thing that all of us have baked into our psyche now.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's like the it's like uh like a cliched trope in science fiction movies that some new technology is developed because of all the good that it can do for humanity, and then like, oh yeah, but we'll use it in the worst possible way and it will ultimately destroy us. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, we built robots because they can make our lives easier and do all the manual labor we don't want to do, and oh no, they're gonna be able to do that. Right. So, you know, when when phones, I mean it was all about look at all the things it can do. Look at all the things it can do. It can do this, it can do that, it can do this, you can go here, you can go that. The internet, social media, phones, all of that, it's all the possibilities are there. The problem is we live in a dark world. I mean, it's it's like Bible 101, right? There are spiritual forces of darkness in this world. And some people might hear that and go, Oh my gosh, you actually believe that? And it's like, yeah. Do you not? I mean, forget the fact that whether you're a Christian or not, like do you you've never had an experience where you've seen something in the world and you go, there is no that's just really dark rational explanation for why a human being would ever go to that place. Like, who would ever think of that?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00And I tell people, I mean, I'll tell people all the time have you ever felt like there just seems to be something like kind of against you? And it's almost like it knows the perfect time and way and place to hit you the hardest, and and it's not just random, and they're like, oh, I feel like that all the time. Yeah, it's because it's true. And so you have uh you have this world that has darkness in it. And that doesn't mean everything's lost and it's all going down the tubes and blah, blah, blah. It's not but uh there's darkness and the exposure, that constant access to the internet via phones, more so than ever, it's in your pocket, it's at your what you're able to be exposed to I think would actually blow most parents away because if you didn't grow up in a childhood where you could explore all those things young, it's easy for you to still believe that, oh yeah, that's probably pretty rare for people to see that stuff. And and the we'll say the stuff. We're talking like pornography, yeah, is the obvious one. But you even said that there's this new trend of I would say violence.
SPEAKER_01I mean, we had a year, I mean, where we all watched someone die on Facebook. Like that happened in 2020. We all say saw the same video of someone dying. And so I guess my point is like Yeah, and so it's interesting, right?
SPEAKER_00How many times have I ever watched someone die? Right. And in real life, a couple. Because I have I haven't been there the moment they've died, but I've been in a lot of hospital. Um, part of me being a pastor, right? I've been in a lot of hospital rooms at the last moments.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but that's a a very hard specific role that you play. It's not you just being like I was a 17-year-old and was, you know, in the traumatic situation.
SPEAKER_00Someone calls me like, hey, can you come to the hospital? They're they're not gonna last much longer. I have some time to scroll.
SPEAKER_01Versus scrolling and it's in between a Fortnite game and an ad for Oh, that's a funny video and someone's dying. Yeah. And so um, and then there's just a fascination with death, I think, that happens for most teenagers.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's been like a big explosion in true crime podcasts, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's like fun and interesting, and like it's it's uh, you know, that dark part of the world can be interesting to explore. I think the extent to which kids explore it when they have full access to the internet is pretty shocking.
SPEAKER_00And so and you you said specifically when we talked that you have seen that you know that there are kids who that that and let's just use this word, we'll come back to it, that curiosity. Because kids are curious, they are so curious. Like to a degree that that's one of the reasons they drive you crazy as a parent, because they're just curious about stuff there's no reason to be curious about. Like, who cares? And they just ask these questions, right? So kids are curious, and and it's actually not weird to be curious about death. I mean, I No, not at all. No, when my son Judah was five, we were driving in the car, and he asked me randomly. It was like such an out of context question, I didn't even know what he was talking about. He's like, Dad, what are the rocks with the words on it? And I was like, Rocks with words. My brain didn't know what that and then we passed a graveyard a little while later, and I was like, Oh, that's what he means.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so it was really kind of like morbidly sweet, I would say. Right. Because he's like, I explained, like, oh, those are gravestones. And he's like, What is that? I was like, Well, when people die, they bury their bodies in those and they put a stone with their name on it. And he's like, Well, what are all the flowers? And I said, Oh, well, people who love them, you know, that are still alive will come and put flowers as a way to say, like, I'm I miss you and I I remember you. And he just kind of said, Okay, he's five. And he turned to his little brother who's three, and he said, This is like 30 seconds later, Eli, you're gonna have to be the one that puts the flowers on my grave. So I realized in his mind he's like, Well, dad'll be dead, mom will be dead, while two older siblings will be dead. He's the only one who will be left to put flowers on my grave. That's awesome. And I was like, Oh, this breaks my heart. But also, yeah, kids are curious about death. And if you're curious, if you're if you have curiosity, the internet and phones give you the ability to have it all the time. Yeah. The internet allows you to go and and explore that curiosity extremely fast. Yeah, you can progress.
SPEAKER_01You can dive deep really quickly. So super curious. I like to say like curiosity cements quickly with the internet. And here's what I mean is like without a phone, curiosity either terminates in your own mind. Right. You just forget. Like you just forget. Like I had that question, and I don't really want to have that conversation. Like, okay, I'll just I'll just live with the uncertainty. Or it, you know, leads to, you know, you can go down a dark road with your friends, or you know, like, but it takes a lot of effort to invest, like, hey, I'm curious about sexuality, let me go ask my friends about it. And there's yeah.
SPEAKER_00When I was in when I example, when I was in the sixth grade, a friend of mine used a sexual term that I did not know. Sure. And I was like, what is that? And he went, just think about it. Yeah. And I was like, oh yeah. And I didn't, I was like, crickets. Right. And I felt like a loser because I didn't know about it. And at that context, he like he was very much in the whole like saying. Looking back, he's just he'd probably been like traumatically exposed to things he shouldn't have been exposed to because he knew way too much. But you felt like you weren't, and so in in I just went home not knowing what it was, and I definitely was gonna ask my mom. Right. I imagine what she would have done. Hey mom, but if I would have had the internet and a phone, I if I would have had I had the internet, I could have gone home and typed it on the computer later, but I felt like ah, it's that's you might be caught. But if I would have had a phone, I would have just in that moment, the first free moment I had afterwards as a kid, I would have just searched it. Sure. And now, and what that would have shown me would have thrust me so much further in terms of my exposure to sexually explicit things that it would have been like I mean, it almost would be like giving a hard drug, right, to someone who's never had an aspirin.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so that's what I mean it cements quickly, is like it turns into either a habit or an addiction or an identity really, really, really quickly because you're able to see um the full extent of it, and that might shock you. And maybe some kids will be like, I'm so shocked that I don't want to see any of that. Most kids, I think, would continue to pursue that in private at their leisure. Right. And so I say identity as well because in the social media sphere or world, these terms or terminology they might be associated with a particular idea that loops them into a community that's online that affirms their curiosity and um challenges their parents' ideas.
SPEAKER_00And even says that, oh, this curiosity means that you are gay or you are transgender.
SPEAKER_01That's happening now. You yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and and look, and whatever your opinions on those things might be, it's undeniable that that that child's opinion of that has been heavily influenced and and sometimes even like shoved by their exposure to those things. And the simple truth is, well, if not for the exposure, right, you know, you wouldn't you wouldn't be there. You wouldn't be thinking about it. So like when I f pornography for me, first time I was exposed to it was third grade. I was at a friend's house and he was like, Hey, you want to see something cool? That was like the setup. And he showed me, you know, uh at that time it was a magazine, but then the next year I was at a friend's house who had the internet, which was kind of a novel thing. And he like I didn't even know what like a uh a search to a search engine was. Sure. And there was a search engine, and he's like, You can just type anything. He's like, like this, and a picture came up and it was like whoa. So you know, I got exposed. But the thing is, I wasn't thinking about sex in third, fourth grade. I wasn't like a sexually frustrated third grader. Right. Though I would have now that stuff led me, that created me thinking about sex. Had I not been exposed to that, I probably wouldn't have I would have naturally at some point three years later started thinking about it as I developed and testosterone hit me and all that kind of stuff and just whatever. But that stuff forced me to become sexual way earlier than I should have. And that led to a ton of major major issues and and struggles with the city.
SPEAKER_01And so as you're raising kids, again, to follow Jesus. It's like Jesus says the eye is the lamp of the body. And and honestly, the metaphor doesn't translate to me.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's a it's more like a window. So, well, yeah, and if we're gonna be like if we're gonna do like exegesis, right, um, that is a super like specific Jewish thing. Okay, that uh I read a whole chapter in a book not that long ago actually about that in context of the Jewish sure culture, and it would have meant more.
SPEAKER_01But where but but the same the the basic idea is like whatever you look at is going to like basically like affect you. Affect you. And if your eye is only looking at darkness, like how dark will the inside of your body be? You can totally like your heart will be dark if you're only looking at darkness. And so and the exposure thing is like to protect them from the level of darkness, you can't protect them from all darkness. Like that's impossible. You can't protect your kids against everything evil and No, that you put them on a bus and a kid can just be like, hey, check this out.
SPEAKER_00Same thing happened to me. That happened to me too. Okay, yeah. Like that that can happen. You can't, but I think what what okay? There's a great there's a proverb where um the writer of the proverb, which is is probably Solomon, says because some of the proverbs aren't Solomon, but at this one I think is where he's talking about like a street. And it's a street that happens to have a uh a person, it's a woman in this example, because he's writing to a man. Actually, wisdom is uh is personified as a woman, yeah, and she is speaking to a foolish man. That's kind of the setup for proverbs, right? And she says, Don't even go down that street. Like, you know what's gonna happen if you go down that street. So why even go down the street? Right. There are certain things that there's a wisdom in going, I'm not prepared to be exposed to this. And if I was exposed to it, I'd like to believe I would be like, no, but I I probably wouldn't. So why even go down that street? And what a lot of us have to realize with our kids and with their devices is it's it's like it's not even going down that street. It's like here is a you're in the house, like you're in the bedroom, you're in the and most parents, and you're look, let's just your expertise working with hundreds of kids. I mean hundreds of teens over over several years, would you say that they have been exposed to way more than their parents think? Yeah, definitely. I think you say that you say that so nonchalantly.
SPEAKER_01I think if you if your kid has a phone, they've at least gone down the road. You know what I mean? Or they've at least, you know, stopped by that woman's house. And again, I say woman because of the metaphor, but even if you have a girl, because most people think like, oh, this is like a a boy's issue, like pornography. It's like, well, the current target market for pornography that hasn't been reached is girls.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. It's like if you're a business owner, why limit yourself to half the population? Right.
SPEAKER_01And so there's uh over sexualization of uh of girls, and that is leading to them participating and you know, looking at that stuff more. And so there's that dynamic. I think that they've been exposed to that. And then again, the darkness thing is like pick your poison.
SPEAKER_00You know, they've been exposed to Well, and you make you I mean you bring up a good point. It's like don't even give that person your like, don't go down that street, don't give them your number because they'll call you, you know. And when you have a phone, it's not necessarily even your kid got curious and went down that road. Someone else may send them something. I mean, you were talking one time about how like I okay, several years ago, it was right uh I think I'd been a youth pastor for a few years. I had this student that I was close with, good guy. He was going through a breakup. And it was the first time I felt old, like, oh, this is a dynamic that didn't exist when I was younger. And he said, But don't worry. He's like, I've uh deleted all the I've deleted all the naked pictures. And I was like, What? And he said, Oh yeah, well, I mean, we're not going out anymore. So I took all those pictures off my phone and I was like, uh dude, we gotta back up because I don't understand what you're saying. Right. And he basically explained to me that there's this normal in today's culture that if you're dating someone, and this was ten years ago. He's like, it's yeah, it's kind of expected that you send them Sure. And I was like, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. And it makes so much sense practically because kids have always been curious that way, but you would have to find a very specific opportunity to explore that kind of stuff. Sure.
SPEAKER_01But with the privacy of your bedroom and a phone, it's like Yeah, you're you and we've had a disconnect even in the past about like talking about pornography just because the pornography of like again, there's like stages of like you said a magazine, like that's a like that's a different thing that doesn't even it probably doesn't even exist anymore. I mean, I'm sure it does, but I'm sure it does. No need to investigate it. But like even niche thing, and then like the internet, like it was like this intense like Hollywood pornography, and now I think the current Gen Z pornography is Gen Z producing pornography for each other. It's like a very personal, it's a very like um low production. There might not even be someone being specifically and directly exploited like by another individual. It's just a teenager taking a picture of themselves, putting it online.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think a way to maybe put that in in layman's terms is like there used to be this thing called the porn industry, and now we just have a porn culture.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Like it used to be there's a s a subset, a specific group of people creating this content and trying to pipe that out to the world versus now.
SPEAKER_01It still exists, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's like YouTube, right? Okay, there used to be like TV stations that made content, and it's a fairly small group of people who are making content for other people to watch. And to have the ability to even make the content, you'd have to have all this access to I mean, you couldn't do that on your own. They still exist, they're still NBC, they're still the same channels, whatever. Except now, I mean, there's just people who have a webcam who are way more popular than the the those channels. Everyone can make entertainment now, and everyone can make porn. And so you actually explained that to me and said, Hey, you gotta understand with young people today, sure, they can go watch a video that's out there, right? But a lot of the time it's people they know. And I was like, my mind was blown by that.
SPEAKER_01And so, I mean And if not people they know, people like people they know. It doesn't have there's not like the Hollywood sheen on it, if that got you. I guess I guess if that makes sense. Gotcha. And so to just know that, like, hey, that this isn't necessarily like a distant like Hollywood pornography.
SPEAKER_00This is like Yeah, it's not like when I was a kid, you could uh parents could say, we're not gonna subscribe to that channel in our cable package. Correct. And that will eliminate nothing nothing bad is on the other channels.
SPEAKER_01This is where it's like is FaceTime a healthy app for you to have on your kids' phone because of their relationships, and if there's an expectation of a hypersexual culture of like, hey, when we're dating, when we FaceTime and it's past this certain point in time where no one's gonna walk into our room, you know what, whatever it is, it's like there that's just given to everybody.
SPEAKER_00FaceTime should have a feature installed that it's like, that's not your face. And it just shuts off. It's like once once a face is not the primary.
SPEAKER_01Which I guess loops loops back into around like it it kind of ties the exposure piece and the constant access piece as well. Dating looks completely different for teenagers than it's ever looked before.
SPEAKER_00And so Well, I just even imagine you talk about the okay, put those two things together. I know I just keep going here. I I I can tell you're ready to move on. Yeah. I'm sorry. It's just blowing my mind because I'm the old guy. Yeah. And I'm like, oh yeah. The pressure of a girl now who's a 14, 15-year-old, would be like, my boyfriend keeps pressuring me to send him pictures. Right. And it actually takes a lot of like it takes a lot of self-confidence and a lot of I don't know, just a firm identity in the world. Yeah, they'd be able to resist that strongly for a long period of time. Right. And it's just heartbreaking to me because you think, I mean, it's just a lot. It's so much. And and the simple truth is the devices are this, they're the gateway. And some all of it up to say, it's not even a matter of your kids having to be the ones to initiate it. It's either it's being sent to them, it's being presented to them, and it's more it's hard of it as a as a parent, and I have to think about this with my own kids. They've probably seen more than I think they have. And they may have even and they're probably hiding something from like that thing. And my oldest is 13, so it's easy for me to be like, well, no, there's still a chance that I'm on the good end of that spectrum. But it's just the it's the world we live in, and these are the primary gateways. And so what do we do?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think what you do is there's like the device down restrictions that you can kind of set, and then there's the like culture that you want to set in your home. So from the device down, I think there's some really simple, you know, things you can do. Um, we've just found that iPhones are probably the best at this, like because of that screen time thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Apple does a really good job of giving you control of limiting things together. Right.
SPEAKER_01And so there's content and privacy restrictions, and within that little tab called screen time, and then content and privacy. Um, there's something called allowed websites only. And so on allowed websites only, which is what we both have on our phones.
SPEAKER_00Correct. Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, you can only go to approved websites. So it basically like breaks your Safari app, which you can just take off your phone anyways. But any browsing requires like the code to approve that.
SPEAKER_00And once it's approved, it's approved forever. You don't have to do that every time you go there.
SPEAKER_01And so what I found was like I don't when you turn you know browsing off completely, it kind of breaks some apps that are necessary where it's like your banking app.
SPEAKER_00Your banking app will be like, oh, we can't.
SPEAKER_01I need to verify that you're you know in the right account and it kind of like pops out to browsing and then pops back in. Yep. And so you can verify your banking app, uh approve that, you know, I don't think maybe your kids don't have banking apps, but approve that web smart so that it doesn't break the break the apps that they need, but it also just doesn't have any capacity to browse anything on there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, for you've got my code. Yep. And what's really cool about it is, you know, because I don't want my phone just to be this unlocked whatever thing. The the specific setup I have that that you're the you're the gatekeeper of, which is great. It just takes so much pressure off of me. I love it. Is um allowed websites only. And at first that was a pain in the neck because I gave you a list of like 10, and I'm like, these are the sites I go to. Sure. And then like every day for a solid month, I was like, hey man, I forgot about this. Oh right, my son is at this basketball tournament and we have to go here to use like Ticketmaster to, yeah, literally, like stuff like that. And so and it got really awkward a few times when I'd be somewhere, and they're like, Yeah, okay, just pull up your phone and scan this QR code and it'll take you to the and I was like, I can't look at you in the menu. And they would yeah, and they'd look at me like, no, no, no, like um just your your phone has a just use the camera. And I was like, no, you don't understand.
SPEAKER_01No, it's like I know the feature.
SPEAKER_00And if it was a guy, I like I you know how I kind of like awkwardness sometimes. So if it was a dude and there was not it was appropriate, no women are around, and I felt I'd just be like, Yeah, I used to have a really big problem with pornography, so uh I just have my phone locked up. And they kind of look at me like, A, too much information. B me too. Me too, and I don't want to talk about this. Right. And we they're like, oh, okay, well, you can just go in. Yeah. You don't even have to pay. And that actually worked. So it's a combination of a lot of websites only, but fast forward to now, that's a super rare thing for me. Because at this point it's it's great. And it also kills my desire just to browse the internet needlessly. Okay. And then second thing is no downloading apps.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no downloading apps so that I can't just download just work around all of the restrictions based on downloading it.
SPEAKER_00So I have to go to you and you go, hey, I need this app. And while it's a little bit of an inconvenience, the way I like to think about it as far as restrictions go is like ancient cities would have walls around them because you only want to use your army for like the big battles. Right. And the the wall, a good wall around your city would repel 90% of the pointless attacks that most of the attacks wouldn't even come. It's like, well, I can't get over the wall. It'd take a big army to use that. And you would have been a fool as a king not to have a wall around your city. Um nowadays, that's I think what these restrictions are. It's like, well, look, some temptate temptation's gonna come. I'd like to not deal with all of it. Right. I would like most of it to be blocked. And then my willpower is reserved for those bigger temptations. And I know it's kind of like people might have less of an opinion of me for sharing that. I'm fine with that. I don't need people to see me as like some perfect person. I that's a stroke. I was exposed to that stuff in third grade and it rocked me. Like it totally messed with my head from third grade all the way into my 20s. And then it took counseling and all kinds of things to come out of that and to live in freedom with that. And that's kind of like a constant pursuit. So even at the stage of life I'm at now, almost 40 years old, I still have these restrictions and they make it easier. So it's it's allowed websites only, no download apps, and I don't have this, but a lot of I would recommend this with kids, is specifically these hours, the device Yeah, you can do time limits that are top down where it's like between here and here, the device doesn't work or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Or you could do it where it's like once you've been on Clash of Clans, I that's just something kids play, but once you've been on it for 35 minutes, it turns off. That's enough. And so like you can set specifically. You can customize like that's cool, people who are like, I'm addicted to Twitter, and they like have like 15 minutes on Twitter because I don't need more than that. Like they can you can set that individually on there. So it's even a helpful tool, like you said, for an adult, but for kids, like definitely to say like one back to the last conversation, why do they have the phone? Do those the apps on the phone help them accomplish those goals? And if there's some other Other benefit to having the phone like a game or something else that they like and you're fine with, then what is the appropriate setting for that game? Is it forever? Is it you know as long as they want or another restrictions?
SPEAKER_00Apple makes it easier than Android from our experience. Now, if you have Android, I'm sure you can look up things that help with that. But if you have an Apple phone, that's pretty built in. Yep. And last thing before we move on to the second factor in the whole how, how do we go about this? There's device restriction, then there's home dynamics. Um but I will say too, on the whole, like time, a lot of parents, you know, time that the phone doesn't work. A lot of parents make that oh while they're at school. Um maybe not, because they want them to text them at school if they're whatever. But really consider those first few hours, because of what we talked about earlier with the constant access and they need rest for their souls, especially when they come home from a school day full of whatever teenager stuff is full of. Really prioritize that first few hours when they're home. And maybe they really need a break from the world. Sure. Then it's just a thought. Now, the second thing though, it's not just device restrictions, it's the home dynamic. This is one of your favorite things to talk about. Yeah. Because you're always like, hey, I don't think your kids are gonna get over this until like I I just really think that they should What do you mean? Well, you've said to parents, I think, like, what's your relationship with your device? Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01What's the whole thing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I think the whole thing. Where did you think we were there?
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I well, I was just gonna say, like, you know, don't let them have their phone in their bedroom. I can't see a wise reason. A wise reason for that.
SPEAKER_00But you can physically say just because you own it doesn't mean you get to take it.
SPEAKER_01Right. I would say bedroom and bathroom are probably two places you don't want your kids' phone.
SPEAKER_00What yeah, what what do you need it in there for?
SPEAKER_01Well, while you're pooping, I think you probably get bored. So I think everyone looks at their phone. Depends on how long you poop. Well, and that's why I think teenagers poop forever. I really do. I don't know how much is a tangent. This is a tangent. This is why I think people are in the bathroom for so long. I'm like, you're just on your phone watching YouTube or something.
SPEAKER_00Didn't I've had I don't know if this is true, and I don't know where I would have learned this or thought this. Did people used to like read the newspaper in the I think that's just like a movie thing. I feel like I've seen like some I don't know why. I've never done this, but I feel like there's some like old in the old days, people would read the newspaper while using the restroom.
SPEAKER_01And so, anyways, I wouldn't I would say like, hey, having it in your in your bedroom or in the bathroom would just not be an appropriate thing because of the dynamics we talked about. And then the real dynamic too is like, what is your relationship as as the parent to your phone? If you're saying between this hour and this hour, you can't be on your phone, and your kid potentially would have wanted to talk to you but sees you on your phone, that's just a signal that no matter how open you'd be or no matter how quickly you would put it in your pocket, it's a signal that like the attention isn't going to be there. And as parents, there's enough going on in your home, like managing chores and dynamics and work and all of that already, that to then take away the time from your kids by being on your phone, it's just so much more. And the amount of times I've been like looking at my phone where I've like ignored like 10 requests, you know, maybe possibly annoying requests from a two-year-old. But like, what does that teach my kid about what kind of person I am or like the ability to talk to me, you know, like the dynamics that are established there? And so just having a really realistic expectation of like, hey, if I'm really going to double down on setting the culture for my teenagers or for my young teenagers, or whoever, however old they are when they have the phone, like maybe self-reflect on what maybe.
SPEAKER_00I need to model that and own that myself. And I think too, on that same kind of idea of in the home, and we'll wrap up, um, just because they're in the same room that you're in doesn't necessarily mean that what's in front of their eyes is wholesome. Right. And I had this, I told you about this, I had this revelation, like I was watching a YouTube video that was analyzing a recent uh like music award show kind of you know, like things that are piped to old people who go, like, what is going on with this generation of it was one of those. Yeah. And there was a specific video that had won Music Video of the Year, and they kind of did a quick analysis of the video. And I mean, dude, it was like okay, I'm not some super old person that grew up watching Andy Griffith. Right. Okay. Like I grew up with MTV. Where's Don Knotts?
SPEAKER_01No, there's no on not wholesome.
SPEAKER_00No, no, I grew up watching MTV. MTV was probably what I watched the most, even as a young kid, because I mean we didn't, it was just a in my house all the time, and music videos are some of my earliest memories. Like this would be the 80s videos, and then by the time I'm a teenager, it's like 90s, and it was deaf, there were like things that pushed the envelope to edge music videos. Music videos have always been a little edgy. But they also always had to recognize that your kids probably watching this like in the living room or even in their bedroom, but like mom can walk in at any time, and it has to at least be defensible. Right. You have to at least be able to say, Mom, oh my gosh, it's not that bad, right? The video that it showed, and it's not some obscure video, it's not some and it's also not like in a standalone category of like, well, this video is crazy, but all the other stuff's pretty No no like several of the biggest, they're just the darkest things I could even tell. It's like someone said, Hey, what if we tried to just make it horrible in every way? And I'm like, how and I realize, oh my gosh. It's because they know that that's not they're not fighting those dynamics anymore. They're not having to put this on the living room TV. It's it's just piped right in front of the kid's face, and the back of the phone is facing the parents. And a lot of times you might be sitting in the room, and I'm not doing this in like a fear-mongering way, but just because they're in the room with you doesn't mean that they're on their phone and it's all it's all okay. That stuff's being piped at them. So take control of your home. Like what happens in your home is like everyone's home is a little kingdom that they are like in charge of, and you have say over what happens in here. It's kind of like Joshua said, as for me and my house, like, well, this is my house. And while here, you know, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. As for me and my house in this place, okay. And so it might even be saying, Hey, by the way, guys, and when we even we're in the living room, if your phones are on, volume up, right? No headphones. Like, let's just there's nothing we should be on that we shouldn't be able to all hear or whatever. And that won't fix everything. Sure. Because the best thing is like, let's just put our phones away. But I do think that just don't be aware of it's not as don't make those assumptions, I guess.
SPEAKER_01And so just set restrictions and um really, you know, be honest and practical about it. And then beneficial boundaries. Beneficial boundaries is what we decided. And then, you know, uh set the culture of your home and be okay with standing by some of those rules, even though it might be challenging.
SPEAKER_00And as we wrap up, let's say there's a kid, the parent got him a phone for a specific reason, and then oh, turns out they have used their phone for all of these things, and it's really causing Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What do you do? You take it away, and you say you'd be a bad guy. I I had a parent saying when we ground them from the phone for a week, it's like we get our kid back. And I was like, why don't you just take the phone away forever then? Like that seems like it would be really helpful. And they you know, they were talking, don't want to ruin the relationship. The relationship will be strained for a time, correct, but not um not so strained that you won't get back your kid. And so if it's putting a restriction on an app that you had previously allowed and just going, like, hey, I actually think TikTok's been bad. Let's not do TikTok. Great. Um, or if it's taking the device away entirely, I think that's okay. Awesome. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00No, I no, listen, I mean, look, in some ways, being a parent is it's like how many places in life do you get to be the bad guy on a daily basis? Right. And and there's no consequences really. I mean, come on, enjoy it. No, honestly, one of the biggest things you gotta do as a parent is just hold that, hold your ground. It's it's your kids will they won't like it, but they will respect you for it eventually, maybe not for years and years and years, but one day they'll look back and go, they were they were trying to do, they were trying to raise me. And that's part of raising a kid to follow Jesus is giving them God gives us beneficial boundaries, even in Jesus. There's the Old Testament, we talk about the law, and there's like all these laws. And there's not that many laws. People are always like, there's 700 laws or 600, whatever laws. You know how many laws there are in America? So many more than that. Right. There's more laws just related to how you drive your car. That is true, yeah. Oh man, and people always like act like the Old Testament, they have that many laws. We have more laws than can be counted, probably. You couldn't even, I tried. There's no, is you can't you can't even find how many laws exist in America. Like you can so it's more than it ever has been. But uh, but even in the New Testament, I mean it's like Jesus has set us free. We're free from the power of sin and death, and we're free from the law. We don't have to define ourselves by, but there are still beneficial boundaries where I mean Paul literally said everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial. And that's where boundaries come in. And they're healthy and good, and use them. All right. Great. Thanks for listening. And this has been Oh, we're also we've heard about our sponsor. Our sponsor. We're sponsored by the color blue. Yep, this episode has been sponsored by the color blue. Anything you see that has that's blue, sponsored.