His Hands Church
His Hands Church
Crash Course: Demons & Spirits
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Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Crash Course. I'm here with uh with Scott Case. How are you doing, Scott?
SPEAKER_01I'm doing great. Glad to be here. Appreciate you having me.
SPEAKER_00I and I always enjoy hanging out with you in our very our very fancy studio. If man, if you guys could just see it. It's a good thing this isn't a video podcast. You would not even believe the luxury of our surroundings. It's just so so nice. Um, no, no. We're in a conference room, which you know, we're conferencing, we're talking, so this works. It works. So we're gonna do uh our episode today on a little something called demons. Demons. It's funny when I say that word, like there's like a voice that you just you picture a demon speaking with, you know what I mean? Like a gnarled sort of like Graspy. It would be weird if if like a demon came to you and spoke like Mickey Mouse. Like a real high-pitched and like That would be weird. Oh, hey Scott. It's me. Be Elzebub. You know, all right. Sorry. All jokes aside, so here's why we want to talk about this Crash Course is a podcast that is designed just to help you get caught up to speed on what the Bible teaches about key things. And uh, and so you know, you listen to any of the previous episodes you want. The idea is if you're either a new Christian or maybe you've even been a Christian for a while, but you just feel like you don't know your stuff, you don't have knowledge maybe to go behind your faith to support your faith, we want to give you a crash course. We don't have time to cover every angle, um, but we want to give you the gist. And the the interesting thing, I think, Scott, is that a lot of people become Christians, start to read their Bible, and it's an ancient document, right? We're talking 2,000 years ago, that's the newest part, uh, to much older for the older parts. And I think there's this tendency that a lot of people have when they're reading it to go, okay, how much of this is still, how much of this still relates to life today, and how much of this stuff is just like old, ancient people who didn't know anything about science, you know, mumbo jumbo. And I think what you see in a lot of churches today, especially modern churches that are trying to reach, you know, non-church people, is kind of this we'll talk about all the practical, good, helpful, you know, Jesus can help you be a better husband, father, have more money. We'll we'll talk about all those practical things, but almost a complete avoidance of the stuff that might seem weird.
SPEAKER_01Because it's just socially unacceptable. Right. It's not cool to think about demons are real.
SPEAKER_00Right. We don't want to sound silly. We don't want to put but but the reality is if you start reading your Bible, let's say you became a Christian yesterday and you're like, I'm just gonna open up the New Testament even, I'm just gonna pour through this thing, you're gonna see a lot, a lot of talk about these spiritual forces. And you know, you're gonna go, what is this? Is this like, is this real? Is this something that applies today? So let's let's talk about demons slash the idea of sort of a spiritual world that maybe we can't see, but yet has great impact and influence on the world around us. So, Scott, if I came to you, I'm a new believer, and I just said, um, what do you think about demons? What would you say? Just but I don't know what scenario, I don't know where we are in the scenario, or like what what you know, we're around a water cooler, or you know, um by the way, I was just curious.
SPEAKER_01What do you think about demons?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was just, you know, the other day going, hmm, demons. I want to talk to someone about that. But seriously, what would I was reading my Bible the other day and I read this crazy story, uh, and apparently that Jesus, you know, this guy was filled with demons, and Jesus you know, expelled the demons out of him, and the demons all went into a bunch of pigs and the pigs jumped in the water and died. Like, what in the world? Are demons real? What is this about? What would your what would your response be?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and the answer is absolutely demons are real. And you know, it's funny how so many people believe in Jesus, but they kind of pick and choose what they want to believe about Jesus. Right. If you believe the Bible, if you believe the life of Jesus and what the Bible says about Jesus, you got to believe in demons because a substantial part of his ministry was casting demons out of people. Right. And so I think you're right. We've got to start with this whole idea of there is a spiritual realm out there that we just have to accept we can't see. You know, even in just the physical realm, our eyes are designed to see a certain spectrum of light, and that's it. And there's light that we know exists that we just can't see with our eyes because we're not designed to see it. And the fact is there is a realm, a spiritual realm out there when God created the world. It says God created the heavens first and the earth. And when he created the heavens, the Bible gives us a picture of all sorts of spiritual beings. There's it talks about elders, it talks about cherubim, seraphim, talks about just spirits, it talks about angels, it talks about demons. Right. And so there is just a host of creatures that are created by God that are alive. Now we know from uh the Bible that there were angels, and one of these angels was this guy named Lucifer, that was the shining angel of light. And I don't want to turn this into a teaching about who Lucifer was, but we know that Lucifer rebelled against God, was cast down to the earth, became Satan, and basically he is the source of all evil. And we know that Satan has a kingdom here on this earth, which means he's in authority over other spiritual beings, and some of those spiritual beings that he has authority over are demons. And it appears from Scripture that there are levels of authority in Satan's kingdom, an organization. An organization. The Bible talks, the words it uses are principalities, powers of darkness, but if you look at those words in the Greek, there's kind of a ranking to them, a highest ranking, a high ranking. Demons appear to be kind of the foot soldiers in Satan's army. And what's interesting about demons, we're not told exactly where they came from. Some people say, well, they're fallen angels. Well, the Bible doesn't actually say that. You can't say they're fallen angels. But what's interesting about demons is they do want to inhabit bodies. And primarily they inhabit people. And so then you have to ask the question, well, how do you give demons, how do demons get into people? It appears that when people just rebel against God and give themselves over to the flesh, uh, that over time it can give demons a place on the inside of them, cause people to do really just strange and bizarre things. It's like you look at people like Charles Manson. Right.
SPEAKER_00You see, someone you'd be like, man, that seems demonic. And it's like, yeah, because it's probably demons. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It probably was demonic. And it's interesting because, you know, I think our culture, and I'll just jump on a few things in response to that. So if you're listening to this and you're like, oh my gosh, what in the world? Um, well, number one, lay out a few stories in scripture, just really quick, that kind of speak to this. Um, you know, Jesus, when he would travel around, the Bible says that he, you know, and every people came to him by the thousands and he healed many of their diseases. It says he healed their sick and cast out demons. Now, I've I've heard counter-arguments that have said basically, hey, the people, this I'm sure you've read stuff like this too. Because look, you can find teaching, you can find anyone in the world who will tell you whatever you want to hear when it comes to this stuff. Just, you know, whatever your opinion you'd like to have, you can find a teacher who supports it. Um, but I want to really know what the Bible says. Um, and so this this person said, look, there really weren't demons. That was just the people of those times, and this is true, the people of those times were very superstitious people. They believed that everything that happened was because of a demon. Everything. So if you got the flu, it was it was a demon. If you were blind, that was a demon. If you were, you know, whatever. And so the idea was Jesus didn't really cast demons out of people, but the people believed that the reason they had their sicknesses were because of demons. So Jesus kind of just used that language to help the people come to terms with the fact that they were healed, but it really wasn't demons, you know. And I was like, okay, but there are times that Jesus healed people who were sick and it doesn't say that he cast demons out. Right. There were times that he healed the blind and he didn't say, and now the demons are, you know, it it specifically says that Jesus came and he healed the sick and cast out demons, like as separate things. And we see many stories in the in the story of Jesus where people are inhabited by demons, influenced by demons, afflicted by demons, and Jesus cast the demons out. And there are stories where the demons are fighting back and having a conversation with Jesus through this person, and there's like even an exchange. Legion would be the classic example if you look that up in scripture of you know the man I'm kind of referenced earlier when I was using our hypothetical scenario, um, you know, of a man that was inhabited by scores of demons, and the demons look at Jesus through this man and say, Please don't destroy us, you know, and so and for someone to say that they weren't really demons, it was just this mythology, basically.
SPEAKER_01There were too many times when Jesus would cast out demons, and there were just physical manifestations. Right. They would come screaming out. And it's not just Jesus, but some of his disciples. There's stories in the book of Acts of when they would go and preach the gospel and cast out demons, and demons would come out screaming. Yep. You had the man that brought his son to Jesus who was demon-possessed, threw himself in fire. He threw himself in the fire. Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And so I think there's been a movement, especially in the last, you know, 50, 60 years, of trying to, really probably last century, of trying to uh almost with Christians being afraid that things in the Bible that maybe seem you know supernatural, you know, because they are. They are um but don't I don't want to seem silly, I don't want to seem like I believe in myths. And so almost let's just create a version of the Bible that um all that stuff we explain away with with by saying it's something else. But the problem when you do that is where where does it start? Like it's a slippery slope. At what point are you actually going to believe the Bible? Right. You're gonna I don't believe in the creation story, but I believe the rest of it. And I was like, okay, so that's the only story you don't believe. Well, I don't believe in the creation story or the flood or the demons or you know the raising from the dead, or but I believe the rest. Okay, so at some point, like just create your own God. I'm like, you just oh, you just don't believe the Bible. You just don't believe so okay, that's okay, just say that. But if you are going to put your faith in what the Bible teaches, rightly interpreted, you really have to do some pretty big leaps of logic and circular thinking and all this stuff to try to create a scenario where demons aren't aren't real. And I'll read a scripture for you. Um, Ephesians chapter 2 says, And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. And just like you mentioned uh earlier, referencing Romans, where it says our battle is not against flesh and blood. Is that Romans?
SPEAKER_01Corinthians.
SPEAKER_00Corinthians. Thank you. I knew I guess I said that and I was like, that's not it, dang it. In Corinthians, what it says, our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, the authorities, and the principalities of the unseen world. Right. And I and what's really interesting is if, and then we'll talk about it more specifically, but if you're someone who's like, I just don't know, look, here's what I'll tell you. Okay, 200, 300 years ago, go back in time, not that far in human history, if you were to walk up to someone and say, Hey, I want to tell you something, when you get sick, it's it's it's not what you think. But really, what it is, is there's these millions of invisible things called germs. And they live in your body. And like they make you uh feel terrible. And you know, they they just like they're everywhere, like they're all around us right now. Like even sitting here as we're talking, they're just they're they're transferring back and forth to us and they fill our bodies, and sometimes they like that's what's making you sick. I mean, people would have either gone like, oh, demons, or you know, and and I think some people think, oh, well, germs explained. But my point is, no, no, no, like the idea that there's something invisible that we can't see that has great effect on us is actually something that uh uh science has played out many times. And the idea of a spiritual world, we were just talking about this before we hit the record button, but like look, if you're if you're up to date on any significant scientific research in the last 60, 70 years, when you're gonna talk about the greatest scientific minds in our world today, almost all of them will say that there are dimensions that exist that we cannot perceive. And I'm talking like the the foremost physicists, I'm not talking about like Einstein said this. Yeah, oh my gosh, Einstein, Hawking, the the foremost physicists in the world today will almost unanimously agree on the idea, and it's a theory, but the idea that there are multiple dimensions that we do not have the ability to perceive, right? And so when the Bible talks about, you know, the the prince of the power of the air, and it describes a spiritual reality that is unseen to us. The classic example, I think, would be Daniel in the Old Testament. Daniel's praying, and eventually an angel shows up, a created spiritual being that we typically do not perceive. And the it's taken a while for the angel to arrive, and the angel basically says, I'm sorry, it took me so long. I had to, I was fighting you know, the Prince of Persia. And it almost lays out like there's this spiritual battle happening just for the angel to deliver this message to Daniel, and it was something that Daniel didn't perceive.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, and so it's it's a very it's a very basic teaching in scripture. And I guess when I'm going with all the germs and the dimensions thing is to say it's not that strange of a concept. That's all I'm really trying to say. And so if there's any part of you that's like, I don't know, like really stop and ask yourself, is it a strange concept to say that there are things at work that we can't see that affect our lives? I mean, how many times have you had a day where you're like, it just feels like something's like something heavy. So and I feel something, yeah, or I just feel like something is like actively working against me to make my life harder than it should be. Right. You know, like if if it's like the Murphy's Law thing. Everything seems to be going wrong at the worst possible moment. It's like, oh, maybe it's because that's true. And the Bible would say it is.
SPEAKER_01And which by the way, the word Satan means resister. So someone resisting us trying to make things harder. But one of the best explanations that I've ever seen, at least that really ministered to me, about this realm, is let's say that uh in this plush office where we're in, there's a lot of things.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, super fancy. On our golden whiteboard that's right behind us?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, solid gold whiteboard. Solid gold. Yeah. And let's say that I drew a two-dimensional stick man on there. Okay. And this stick figure, he can see in two dimensions. He can see left, right, he can see up and down. What he can't see is out from the board. I'm real, but he's a two-dimensional character. I'm a three-dimensional character. He can't see me. Now, I could communicate with him if he were alive and real. I could influence his world. I could go up there and I could draw a bird, and all of a sudden he could see a bird. He doesn't know where it came from. Right. But there is another realm that he can't see that can absolutely affect his world. Well, the fact is, we're 3D characters. We live in three dimensions, but there's a fourth dimension that's exactly the same way.
SPEAKER_00I think God probably has like eight D's. What do you think? How many D's? I'd say at least eight.
SPEAKER_01At least eight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it's a realm out there that's just another dimension we can't see, but absolutely affects us. Sometimes I believe when God answers prayer, he takes things from that fourth dimension, brings them into our dimension, and answers prayer with them. Things that happen that we can't explain.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think fourth dimension, like, so even beyond that, so a lot of people would say, okay, height, width, depth, those are the three dimensions we exist in. The fourth dimension would be time, right? We exist in time. God is outside of that dimension. Right. The Bible says he is literally outside of time. So again, there's a dimension even beyond that that he's operating in, and he's like, Oh, I'm not bound by time, so I can do things, you know, I'm doing something now and yesterday and tomorrow at the exact same moment because it's not, you know, and and and that's something that the Bible teaches. And in that world, you know, it's kind of like you accept the idea that there are dimensions, realities that I can't perceive that are real, that exist, that influence life. And in that teaching is the idea that there are evil forces that are organized, right? Right. They're set up and organized in almost uh military terms are what's used, you know, in the Corinthians, that they're like set up like an army. They are uh active, you know what I mean? Um and in the Bible even speaks about it like not just not just active on a personal sense, that there can be spiritual forces that are acting against you personally, but spiritual forces that are acting, you know, and influencing entire cultures. You know, and so and even the in the division that you see when it says that you know that that basically they have you know it says following the the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work, you know, there's scripture that talks about how Satan has is currently has authority in in our fallen, you know, sinful world. Um so I guess going from this, because I'm looking at the clock and want to be, you know, want to keep these short, you know, we're talking about like demons and dimensions and all that, like, but we gotta do it real quick. Practically, Scott, what would you say? What why why is it important for a Christian to a believe in the existence of demons in a spiritual world? How is this practical and useful in my last time?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great question. And Paul said this. He said, you know, our enemy is not flesh and blood. We don't fight against flesh and blood.
SPEAKER_00That's in Corinthians, not Romans, by the way.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah. But we fight against these principalities, these powers, these spirits of wickedness in heavenly places. We are wrestling against these demons. Sometimes when people behave in ways they don't understand, they think in ways that they don't understand, they're tempted beyond what they think is normal. We are wrestling against these spiritual uh beings. But I think here's what's important for Christians to understand there's absolutely no need to fear. The Bible says that Jesus gives us authority over demons. That's why his uh disciples would go out and cast demons out of people. Jesus gives us power over these things. We can win the battles that we fight, these spiritual battles, not just against us, but that are fighting other people. We need to realize sometimes when we're witnessing to people, when we're talking to other people about Jesus, there is a spirit or spirits that are trying to keep them from understanding what we're saying, and that maybe it's causing them to react in a very negative way. And part of the answer isn't to get upset at the person and try and beat on the person to get them to see, but it's to understand, okay, there's spiritual forces at work here that I need to pray against, I need to take authority over, and he does give us that authority through Jesus. We are more powerful than demons.
SPEAKER_00I would even add to that too, and then we will we'll wrap up. Um because I know in our next episode we're going to talk about the kingdom of God and what that looks like, which really I think builds off what we're talking about now. But we have authority that's been given to us. I think the other thing I would say practically to a new believer or any believer, honestly, this applies to anyone, because I know a lot of people who've been following Jesus for a long time that still haven't quite grasped this, and I still wrestle with this personally, is that pray that God gives you a sensitivity to what's happening spiritually. You know, the reality is our bodies are sensitive. I use germs as an example a few minutes ago. If you have the flu, you just being in my presence right now uh would make would would have influence on my body, that those same germs and and whatnot would affect could affect me physically, and I could kind of catch what you have. And there is a truth to that spiritually as well, you know what I mean? That you can kind of catch a spirit, so to speak. And I'm not talking about being I'm not talking about being demon-possessed, but I'm talking about being influenced by a spiritual reality. And I'll give you an example. Um you ever go into a place and like the moment you walk in, you feel like you just sense of evil. Yeah, or or or just something like, and and and you have if you're aware of it, but if you're not purposeful and mindful, like you can find yourself, you know, really like affected by it. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I had a um I'm coaching my son's basketball, you know, team, and we had a game the other day, and I was I was like, I was telling, I was telling Megan um that like I felt weird in the gym that we were in, and I just felt like like more intense, you know what I mean? Like I was talking with more intensity to my team, I was yelling louder, like it just felt like hyper competitive. I'm a competitive person, but it almost felt like that angry kind of competition. Right. The other coach was like super intense, and you know, I just I'm like yelling louder than I normally yell. And I even told Megan after the game, I was like, I don't know, just that gym just felt intense. And someone else who coaches or has works in the same league was like, oh man, that gym is always like the loud every year, it's the loudest gym. It's uh, you know, like there's more uh more technical fouls, there's more arguments with fans, there's more refs that, you know, that that's always the like one of the the plays. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. Again, I'm not saying that there's like you'd have to be a pretty lowly ranked demon to be I'm what are you the demon over? I'm the demon over an elementary school's basketball game.
SPEAKER_01It's just like demon interns.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm like the intern demon. But but my point just is look, whether that was spiritual or not, or what I'm just I'm using it as an example, that we find ourselves in places sometimes where it's almost like me being here, I feel more negative, I feel more angry, I feel more whatever. Um, well, the Bible teaches pretty clearly that there's a spiritual reality, and we should be sensitive to it, right? Careful of it, and aware of it. And the beautiful thing is when we become aware of it, we go, we claim authority. Greater greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world. That's what the Bible teaches, that Jesus is the name above all names, and I don't have to you don't have to be afraid of demons. Maybe we'll end there. They're not good, you know, they actually should probably be afraid of you. Yes. Um, and we'll talk about that here in a second.
SPEAKER_01I gotta tell you real quick when the t-shirt said, I'm the Christian that Satan warned you about.
SPEAKER_00Ooh.
SPEAKER_01And I love that. Yeah, you know, is yeah, you're right, demons fear us.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so this is a t-shirt that's written to a demon.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Okay. I am the Christian that Satan warned you about.
SPEAKER_00Oh, gotcha. Because I'm thinking, like, if you're wearing that t-shirt and you go to, you know, like a frozen yogurt stand and the person wearing the frozen yogurt stand is like, I I'm why I don't understand. That's a good shirt. Yeah. Yeah. It was and But the reality is, if we're a Jesus follower, we have the Spirit of God living in us, and and that's that's not that's way more powerful. Name above all names. Okay, we're gonna wrap this one up, talking about demons, uh, and we'll see you guys soon.